Can we separate culture from religion?

[Ahanu]

I think this is an issue in all religions, the reservation to actually learning about another's beliefs. Is it fear?
-Wil

Ah, yes, religion and fear.

Here are two words I rarely see together: culture and fear.

Consider it is culture that shapes our social and cognitive concepts. Culture was defined by Geertz as a "historically transmitted semiotic network constructed by humans and which allows them to develop, communicate and perpetuate their knowledge, beliefs and attitudes about the world."

Can a religion really be understood outside of the culture it originated?

Once culture shapes our ways of thinking, to try to acquire another culture would be extremely difficult. By acuiring another culture, I do not mean transculturation (which means, according to my source from James P. Lantolf, "recognition of the validity of different cutural viewpoints while remaining at ease with one's own culture"), but I mean learning to see the world through culturally different eyes!

Outsiders, including researchers and anthropologists, will remain out there looking in because they will never give a complete interpretation of a long gone culture due to their assumptions about the world and individual sense of self derived from their own culture. To reconstruct that long gone culture under study is impossible.

The reservation to actually learning about another's belief is partly a cultural issue and partly a religion issue, because you cannot separate religion and culture, just as you cannot separate language and culture.

Humans have a tendency to fear what is different. Think of the ways your culture and religion have influenced your psychological development, then imagine how you felt when the first person you encounterd looked at the world with culturally different eyes. I imagine this experience would be even more difficult for those living isolated within their own culture. That's one reason that, when I was a Southern Baptist Christian, I would be fearful to learn of another religion. That atmosphere was a breeding ground for an intolerant attitude. Anyway, I think living in a big city for a year helped in changing my view.

 

[IowaGuy]

you cannot separate religion and culture

Interesting topic.

I have a friend who considers himself a Jew, his parents are Jewish and he follows many Jewish customs. But he is one of the least religious people I know, and is the first to admit it. He does not consider himself Jewish from a religious perspective. Let's say someday he converts to Buddhism yet retains his Jewish cultural practices. Is that not separating culture from religion?

 

[Etu Malku]

Interesting topic.

I have a friend who considers himself a Jew, his parents are Jewish and he follows many Jewish customs. But he is one of the least religious people I know, and is the first to admit it. He does not consider himself Jewish from a religious perspective. Let's say someday he converts to Buddhism yet retains his Jewish cultural practices. Is that not separating culture from religion?

Interesting and something I never agreed with is the Judaic custom that if your Mother is Jewish, you are automatically Jewish. As if Jewish was an ethnicity?

 

[wil]

When we talk about religion and culture, Judaism often comes to the forefront...and Hinduism and Indian...I guess a bunch, not many Shinto outside of Japan are there?

Judaism has been a country, a nationality, a religion, a race, an ethnicity....and more? But Judaism and its requirements are few....yes maternally passed, and not much on converting either...

But culture and religion....me thinks in the modern day....since boats traversed the globe religions have invaded many cultures...

 

[Etu Malku]

. . . Judaism has been a country, a nationality, a religion, a race, an ethnicity....and more?

It has? I don't doubt it.

However, I would like to see scientific DNA proof that there is a Jewish ethnicity.

Sorry for derailing the thread with this babble

 

[seattlegal]

It has? I don't doubt it.

However, I would like to see scientific DNA proof that there is a Jewish ethnicity.

Sorry for derailing the thread with this babble

Lemba people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Etu Malku]

Lemba people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Excellent! Thanks

 

[Ahanu]

I have a friend who considers himself a Jew, his parents are Jewish and he follows many Jewish customs. But he is one of the least religious people I know, and is the first to admit it. He does not consider himself Jewish from a religious perspective. Let's say someday he converts to Buddhism yet retains his Jewish cultural practices. Is that not separating culture from religion?

Yes, but only if you define culture as a particular set of practices.

Culture pervades more of my life than certain cultural practices. It's my worldview.

For example, while Socrates emphasized truth, Confucius emphasized the consequences of an action. This small, subtle difference influences the goals of education in China and America. As you can imagine, there are many examples. Consider this small oddity from the perspective of an American like myself: in Hopi no distinction is made between spilling and pouring. Ha! Or consider that, in U.S. culture, private property and individual rights are salient, whereas, in Wintu culture these concepts are meaningless. Now I'm the oddity! This is because of the concept of self and other in these cultures.

 

[Ahanu]

I guess a bunch, not many Shinto outside of Japan are there?

We should study Shinto for a month. Practice it for a day or two. Study Japanese. Then invade this Shintoless forum!

 

[IowaGuy]

Culture pervades more of my life than certain cultural practices. It's my worldview....For example, while Socrates emphasized truth, Confucius emphasized the consequences of an action.... in Hopi no distinction is made between spilling and pouring. Ha! Or consider that, in U.S. culture, private property and individual rights are salient, whereas, in Wintu culture these concepts are meaningless.

The examples you give are interesting from a cultural standpoint, but they don't necessarily emanate from religious beliefs. So can we separate worldview from religion?

Let's consider 3 different countries that share the same religion. How about Venezuela, Ireland, and Italy. All predominantly Catholic (Venezuela 92%, Ireland 95%, Italy 97%).

In Italy they speak Italian. Ireland, English (or at least that's what they call it ). Venezuela, Spanish.

Ireland is part of the European Union and has a democratically-elected leader. Italy, also part of the E.U. (although maybe not for long with the Euro debt crisis). Venezuela has Hugo Chavez

Italy = wine; Ireland = beer; Venezuela = rum with Angostura bitters (not a good idea for shots with the locals, FYI).

Italy = supermodels; Venezuela = supermodels; Ireland = have another beer (sorry, I couldn't resist)

Italy & Ireland are allies of the U.S.; Venezuela hates the U.S. (at least their President does)

Can you separate their shared Catholicism from their disparate wordviews? Yes. Same religion; almost everything else different except for religion and cultural practices directly related to Catholicism such as infant baptism and circumcision.

I think, like Wil said, in modern times it's a tough argument that religion and culture go hand in hand. So yes, you CAN separate culture from religion. Think about the 1.2 billion Catholics spread across the globe. All Catholics, though they share the same religion, certainly do not share the same worldview/culture. Your argument as stated makes more sense in ancient times, where movement of people and religions were restricted due to limited technology. My gut feeling is that a scientific study of your hypothesis would not show much if any statistical significance between culture/worldview & religion when analyzed across the world for Christianity or Catholicism; as they are spread throughout so many countries/cultures. More obscure or geographically-restricted religions, perhaps would have a stronger relationship between culture and religion.

I think one's native language would be a better predictor of worldview than religion. Probably statistically significant over large sample sizes, but with a lot of variance.

Do you think a better predictor of worldview is whether someone is Catholic or whether someone speaks Mandarin?

 

[seattlegal]

I think one's native language would be a better predictor of worldview than religion. Probably statistically significant over large sample sizes, but with a lot of variance.

Do you think a better predictor of worldview is whether someone is Catholic or whether someone speaks Mandarin?

Alright, let's explore it from our language standpoint: etymonline com:

Online Etymology Dictionary
cult
1610s, "worship," also "a particular form of worship," from Fr. culte (17c.), from L. cultus "care, labor; cultivation, culture; worship, reverence," originally "tended, cultivated," pp. of colere "to till" (see colony). Rare after 17c.; revived mid-19c. with reference to ancient or primitive rituals. Meaning "devotion to a person or thing" is from 1829.
Cult. An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree. [Rawson]

Online Etymology Dictionary
culture
mid-15c., "the tilling of land," from M.Fr. culture and directly from L. cultura "a cultivating, agriculture," figuratively "care, culture, an honoring," from pp. stem of colere "tend, guard, cultivate, till" (see cult). The figurative sense of "cultivation through education" is first attested c.1500. Meaning "the intellectual side of civilization" is from 1805; that of "collective customs and achievements of a people" is from 1867.
For without culture or holiness, which are always the gift of a very few, a man may renounce wealth or any other external thing, but he cannot renounce hatred, envy, jealousy, revenge. Culture is the sanctity of the intellect. [William Butler Yeats]
Slang culture vulture is from 1947. Culture shock first recorded 1940.

Online Etymology Dictionary
occult
1530s, "secret, not divulged," from L. occultus "hidden, concealed, secret," pp. of occulere "cover over, conceal," from ob "over" + a verb related to celare "to hide," from PIE base *kel- (see cell). Meaning "not apprehended by the mind, beyond the range of understanding" is from 1540s. The association with the supernatural sciences (magic, alchemy, astrology, etc.) dates from 1630s.​

Teasing these concepts apart from within our language framework might be helpful to compare and contrast these concepts as our culture {pun intended} understands them:
Culture is public, educational, what is collectively understood. Cult would then be like an individual private tutor, and occult would be exploring that which is neither publically or individually understood.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

I used to attend a Japanese Buddhist church (Higashi Honganji) whose devotions consisted mainly of chanting Buddhist sutras. The sutras were all in Japanese, so an attempt had been made to translate them into English. But they didn't "sound right" in English. (Japanese has a certain rhythm that disappears when the sutras are spoken in English, and the rhythm is critical to "getting into the mood.") So, they went back to chanting in Japanese. This put a huge cultural limitation on the services, but there didn't seem to be any way around it.

 

[radarmark]

IG, we Irish do not have a drinking problem... it's juat that G!d gave us Guiness (the best beer) and the original uisce beatha (ever had Black Bush?). We never had a chance (look up Midleton's Reserve).

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.

 

[Ahanu]

I used to attend a Japanese Buddhist church (Higashi Honganji) whose devotions consisted mainly of chanting Buddhist sutras. The sutras were all in Japanese, so an attempt had been made to translate them into English. But they didn't "sound right" in English. (Japanese has a certain rhythm that disappears when the sutras are spoken in English, and the rhythm is critical to "getting into the mood.") So, they went back to chanting in Japanese. This put a huge cultural limitation on the services, but there didn't seem to be any way around it.

Hey, Nick the Pilot, you're living in China. From your observations (if you have any), would you say Chinese Catholics and Buddhists in China, for example, emphasize the consequences of one's actions in their religion? Do you think they emphasize truth as much as an American Buddhist or American Catholic would? Do you think Chinese Buddhist would emphasize truth in China? Do you think there would be a difference?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Ahanu,

I'm not sure where you are coming from. Do you think there may be a difference in the way American and Chinese religious people emphasize the consequences of one's actions? Or that they may emphasize the truth differently? (I have not seen either.) Can you give us some examples of what you are referring to?

 

[Ahanu]

Can you give us some examples of what you are referring to?

Sure.

Compare Socrates and Confucius. They will serve as our models for America and China.

Socrates thought thinking for oneself was more important than tradition:

"I have heard a tradition of the ancients, whether true or not they only know; although if we had found the truth ourselves, do you think that we should care much about the opinions of men?"

For Confucius, passing on tradition was more important than thinking for oneself:

"The Master said, 'I transmit but do not innovate. I am truthful in what I say and devoted to antiquity.'"

"When under siege in K'uang, the Master said, 'With King Wen dead, is not culture invested here in me? If Heaven intends culture to be destroyed, those who come after me will not be able to have any part of it. If Heaven does not intend this culture to be destroyed, then what can the men of K'uang do to me?"

Confucianism does not teach blind obedience to authority, however.

"In doing what is authoritatively human, do not yield even to your teacher."

Confucius did mention thinking:

"The Master said, 'If one learns from others but does not think, one will be bewildered. If, on the other hand, one thinks but does not learn from others, one will be in peril.'"

The difference is this: Confucius and Socrates thought about thinking in different ways. For Socrates thinking is reasoning, but, for Confucius, thinking is performative. For Confucius, thinking is primarily about the achievement of a practical result, not about the consequences of a hypothesis:

"Of all the metods of controlling the body and nourishing the mind, there is none more direct than the rules of proper conduct, none more important than getting a teacher, none more divine than to have one desire."

Consider the consequences of using the right names in the doctrine of zheng ming:

"When names are not correct, what is said will not sound reasonable; when what is said does not sound reasonable, affairs will not culminate in success; when affairs do not culminate in success, rites and music will not flourish; when rites and music do not flourish, punishments will not fit the crimes; when punishments do not fit the crimes, the common people will not know where to put hand and foot. Thus when the gentlemen names something, the name is sure to be usable in speech, and when he says something this is sure to be practicable. The thing about the gentleman is that he is anything but casual where speech is concerned."

How might this manifest itself?

From the information above, one could conclude that for Chinese Catholics and Chinese Buddhists, thinking is performative. Chinese Baha'is and other Chinese religious persons included. Imagine if the entire world were Chinese. Since thinking is performative in Chinese culture, imagine how that would change religion. Hmm . . .

 

[seattlegal]

Good post, Ahanu. Nice contrast between emphasizing theory and emphasizing practice.

 

[Ahanu]

Do you think a better predictor of worldview is whether someone is Catholic or whether someone speaks Mandarin?

Mandarin comes first, Catholic comes second.

At least for native speakers of Mandarin.

So I'm guessing Mandarin?

Language is so interesting. You can guess these Chinese words:

咖啡 kafei (coffee)
巧克力 qiaokeli (chocolate)

While there are many borrowed words in English, there are not many borrowed words in Chinese. No major historical population migrations, I guess. However, while English has a lot of compound words, Chinese has even more compound words. Way more. In fact, 80 percent of Chinese is composed of compound words. Compound words might show how culture evolves. One way to make a compound word in Chinese is by placing together two opposites. For example, 左右 (zuoyou) means approximately, nearly or about. "左" means left and "右" means right. "There is enough coffee to make left-right one more pot."



Reminds me of a certain Chinese philosophy: 阴阳 (yin yang).

Language must shape a Chinese person's interpretation of experience in a profound way. I could not imagine what it would be like to see with culturally different eyes.

I wonder what various religions look like filtered through those eyes.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Ahanu,

The way I see it, the one thing that is the biggest thing in Chinese culture right now is the changes the communists have made in Chinese culture since WWII. Quite simply, the communists wiped out a lot of Confucianism, etc., from the culture. This has left the Chinese people quite pragmatic -- they do not "fool" with a lot of religious and philosophical theories, hypotheses, etc., they just figure out how to do something. (Chinese people, of course, will not admit this. They are extremely sensitive to criticism of Chinese government and culture. For example, they avoid the word "communism" as much as possible.)

But this does not mean that all Chinese ways have been wiped out. There are many ways of doing things that are the Chinese way of doing things, and these ways (provided they are not part of the cultural and social changes put in by the communists) have not changed. I just had a fascinating discussion with an Australian businessman here in China who is trying to teach Chinese builders how to use western-style scaffolding at his construction sites, with no success. Once Chinese construction workers are turned loose on their own, they revert back to using metal and bamboo scaffolding like they have used their whole life.

There is a move in the Chinese government to re-build Confucianistic, etc., principles within the people. Buddhism is actually being encouraged by the communist government. (The government "admits" its policy of no religion for decades has left many young Chinese people highly materialistic and without a high set of morals.) It will be fascinating to see how far it gets.

 

[radarmark]

Thnks, Anhanu. It seems that when a religion comes to China it transforms.. Chan is but one example. The difference between Socrates and Confucius is noted, probably one of the largest cultural differences. You see this, I am afraid most of us from the other side do not. As you know there are tremendous cultural differences in Asia (from China to India to Japan to Siberia...). What we on the other side fail often to see is our own culture is far from transparent. I have developed friendships with a number of Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Chrisitans. And I think the cultural and other internal differences are easilt as large as those between say the Chinese and the Japanese.

Religions manifest themselves in a cultural millieux which transform at least the understanding thereof. Even then, within a culture, the religion further diversifies from group to group or even person to person. However, if we are aware of this and look at religion and spirituality with that in mind, we can mitigate against misunderstanding.

Pax et amore omnia vincunt.