When a heavenly being incarnates into the human egg there is a forget-fullness of the prehuman self. The human child is like a clean slate learning ect as it goes along but also has knowledge locked within it from its prehuman state. So yes it can be wrong along the way but it knows when its right.
When a heavenly being incarnates into the human egg there is a forget-fullness of the prehuman self. The human child is like a clean slate learning ect as it goes along but also has knowledge locked within it from its prehuman state. So yes it can be wrong along the way but it knows when its right.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Good luck, donnann; some of us have been trying to get Thomas here to understand this notion for ... quite a few years. It's as if he's never read a single book of Eastern philosophy or religion ... or maybe none of it just registered.
tabula rasa? Has no clue.
Alaya vijnana? ditto
Permanent atoms (Vedic, more recently revisited by Theosophy) ... ? Ha!
Thomas will ask all day long WHY we can't remember (pre-natal states if you don't believe in rebirth, other lives if you do) ... but will pay no attention if you try and tell him. I have given up, as have many others. Sure, we have the direct memories in question, and even understand HOW it works. Does Thomas care?
Not really. I think his mind's *already made up* ...
... hey, no skin off my back, teeth, nose or bones!
Let the Grand Inquisitor have his say; Every dog will have his day!
He must be stubborn or just lack understanding.
Because the prehuman self is sealed away. The fall caused a sealing away of the human spirit and soul which is filtered through to the human bodies but not one with them. If it were you would be in resurrected condtion. The human body is really like the skin for the whole body , the soul being the internal organs and the spirit being the blood. This is why jesus made references to those things but associated them with things in the body for understanding. A heavenly being is not separate from its spirit and soul oneness but being a heavenly being consists of more light and compacts and descends into the egg at the moment of conception and is sealed within the HUMAN body beyond the human spirit and soul which is not one with the body because of the fallen condtion. The prehuman self is filtered through the fallen condtion to the brain and body but has to go through not only the body but also the human soul and spirit to get to the body which is why there is forgetfullness.
This can get even more complicated. Now what if someone was conceived by a fallen heavenly being(not considered human) and human but came from the heavenly universe. That would make the body half human half angelic so the filters would be even thicker.
Sorry for the multiple posts...I believe the bible calls it nephalim.
Well its an interesting but problematic hypothesis ... you still have not explained how, why and for what possible reason?
The nephalim really doesn't explain anything ... there are many logical etymological reasons to suggest the nephalim was a term used to describe Canaanite warriors.
God bless
Thomas
And I've been trying to explain to you that simply because you believe it, does not make it true.
I have, it has, and I suggest that the ideas you present are based on exoteric and sentimental readings of the texts.
I think life goes on, the universal principle, being-as-such, but I think you erroneously associate the particular (you) with the universal, and assume that 'I' (the individual, relative, contingent and ephemeral manifestation of the universal principle), that 'Andrew' is a universal, who just changes his/her name each time round ...
I care for truth. You have 'understandings' which I find deeply flawed, and which you cannot respond to.
Morphic resonance ... dna memory ... suggestion ... imagination ... fantasia ... all manner of neurological conditions ... the exchange between long and short-term memory ... ?
My twin daughters have 'shared memories' which they have to check with us to find out who the memory actually belongs to!
God bless,
Thomas
The human body is really a skin that belongs to the whole body(male is really only half female the other half but it remains that way because we are very complex beings when it comes to ultimate reality. The soul which is multicolored light and is literal emotion is like the eternal organs the skin protects and the spirit which is light (golden light) made up of black and white light is like the blood. If your body were to be brought in union with your spirit and soul that would be what scripture calls resurrection. Because the soul and spirit are not one but sealed away its filtered through the body. The body is the senses part of the whole thing. As far as forgetfullness when a heavenly being incarnated into the human body it compacts(being made up of golden light but not in separated condtion) and descends into the egg and sperm union (when sex is involved). Then it is sealed into the human condition beyond the human soul and spirit. So the prehuman self is filtered through but not one with hence you have forgetfullness. Understand?
Since you mentioned having twins ....do you know prior to the fall that the male and female literally were mirror images of each other but because of the fall look different from each other now but also have that mirror image as well.....something to think about. The block is a false mirror looking for the exact mirror image like it was before the fall and the breaking of the false mirror image is the union realizing that your going to be different from your other half as well as also being the same.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Nor Thomas, does your lack of belief in any way bother me, or discredit my beliefs (and knowledge) or make it less true.
Oh, you can suggest anything you like, Thomas. But as you've just kindly noted, this in *no way* means that your ideas, judgments & opinions represent or resemble the truth!Thomas said:
This is a misunderstanding, brought about because you begin with this confusion as part of your basis, at the very foundation of your understanding ... and when philosopher start with faulty premise, philosopher result with faulty conclusion!Thomas said:
Research the ahankar [ahamkara in Sanskrit, described as the `I-maker' or I-making Principle of Consciousness]. You will need to become familiar with the Kumaras, the Tanmatras & Mahabhutas and what is indicated by the idea of the jiva.
Yes, Thomas, the Jiva is what reincarnates, not your or I. Hasn't this been underscored 1001 times here at Interfaith in the time you and I have been posting, on practically every forum wherein the topic possibly could be discussed - in quite a number of nuances & contexts, some of which prove the tremendous collection of bright & gifted thinkers and seekers that visit these forums?
The personality is simply a passing thought, temporarily galvanized and all-too-real-seeming, yet this is Sakkyaditti, the delusion of self. Let me ask you, old Bean, how do you feel when you look into the mirror? Are you quite comfortable yet, affirming that THIS is but the pale image, the true shadow cast ... and this, but one of your billions of other selves?
When you can say this, feel this, know this and not simply BELIEVE this ... you will no longer argue or quarrel over this relationship between 1) Personality [the MASK], 2) Soul [the One who wears the Mask] ... and parent MONAD [the Prodigal Son of Christian allegory].
This does not mean that all questions disappear. As always each question answered gives rise to several more as the Lernean Hydra gains new heads. Like Hercules, you too must deal with this problem. But for clarity:
The Soul is the *Spiritual* Ego of Theosophy, more true than the persona that it temporarily wears [oh, when will you begin to take Latin seriously?]; it therefore deserves the term `I AM' far more than its periodical vehicles. But of course, if you've studied the Ageless Wisdom, the Perennial Philosophy, then you should recognize this.
The Jiva is at the crux of Platonic & NeoPlatonic philosophy; it is the `Actor' & Higher Self of Jungian psychology and all modern `New Age' spirituality - however fluffy the latter may sometimes become in its effort to please anyone who comes long.
Note carefully: Theosophy and the Ageless Wisdom Teachings do *not* simply hand out ready-made answers to all of life's problems, thumping any single book as Bible or requiring dogmatically that its adherents yield all powers of reasoning and imagination once they have expressed an interest. Modern religions may do all this; the Wisdom Tradition asks that you KEEP ASKING questions. The moment you are sure that you've figured it all out, you know you've taken at least one step off the beaten path. Better to correct the error when you recognize it and admit that the Hydra just became a little more challenging of an opponent. Perhaps Hercules had ... a method, for finally defeating this oppressive foe? Hmmm.
The Jiva is taught in the Zohar, Code of Manu, Vedas, Kabbalah, Buddhism, Christian esoterism, etc. as clothing itself [the BREATH] first in a stone, then a plant, then an animal, then a man, THEN an angel, THEN a `god' [Deva] ... and finally, at LONG LAST, at the final close of many long ages, returning to *GOD*. Thus we have a full circuit, and that which began with God returns to God, yet the experience of Individuality, of `I-ness' has been added, then TRANSCENDED, and God has lost nothing - although your SACRIFICIAL LAMB is by no means just a sham [figure THAT, old Bean] ...
... and in fact, not only have we gained all that you are, all that you have ever been or even shall be - but, believe it or not, Thomas, we are ALL also better for YOUR gain, and vice versa - and even God, yes GOD, at least in manifestation [emanation, Incarnation] is GREATER.
For awhile this will continue to make no sense and I realize that. But one day, with Saggitarian-like aim, striving for World Service [perfected in Pisces] and Group Consciousness [Aquarius] as never before ... consecrating our New Birth in Capricorn, the Soul shall take Initiation. So shall we [ALL] see, for behold the glass is dark and now we see only in part; what was that about a VEIL I sometimes hear you mention ...
What have I not responded to? I have not perfected my mind-reading skills, Thomas; you will need to be a bit more specific. I don't give a damn if you find anything about me deeply flawed. It may represent accurate observation and wise assessment, in some respects and to a certain degree. When it comes to past-life memories, I'll stake my mortal soul against yours, if it ever comes to it. Get it?Thomas said:
I cannot stake what I DO NOT POSSESS, nor can you, so let's leave the Immortal Ego, the true man and subject of this thread [either directly or indirectly] out of it. I would wager you every every atom in this GALAXY that you too, like me and like every other Tom, Dick or Harry ... WILL reincarnate. Does it bother you?
Apparently to quite a great degree. I wish I could help. Thomas, I probably can't. I can only answer questions as best as I understand them, and only if I have some experience in that area - and even then we know good & well that what I share will ALWAYS be slightly flawed or imperfect, not necessarily fully accurate, until & unless I become Asekha Adept. Or as you Catholics may still put it, "receive the Christ" [for this is evidenced, if on a higher turn of the spiral, in the Baptism at JORDAN].
Again, do you WANT to understand Reincarnation? Or would you rather just sit there and reload, preparing for the next clay pigeon? Since the latter is often the case with you, I think I'll gladly keep my pearls close as we proceed. You WILL understand, I'm sure.
I CANNOT tell you who you were, when it was, or what that's all about. I don't have that ability. The Buddha did; and so did the Christ as he picked his apostles. EVERY Teacher of a certain attainment does so, and EVERY Master that takes students must be able to read the student's karma precisely. This is all explained in quite a bit of detail, in context, for the serious student. Do you suddenly find yourself more interested in the latter, in the context of the Ageless Wisdom that I believe in and seek to make COMPLETE within my life?
Perhaps if not, you should concentrate on being a good Catholic. While that may seem patronizing or condescending, it is meant as neither. I simply mean, if you are so adamantly opposed to this doctrine, one which I find at the HEART and CRUX of every world religion - *without exception* - then why not just proceed with your OWN good Faith? Why must that somehow include an effort to dissuade others? After all, I am not the least bit interested in gaining converts and trying to expand the flock, as again, the Christian tends to put it. I would share something of my own experiences, and if they resonate, people will pick up on it.
Sure I can remember 6 or 7 past lives. Names, locations, vocations and in several cases the outcome of those lives. I know why they were lived, what the goals were (at least in broad brushstrokes), how well I did overall in fulfilling those goals ... and I know and can see where the carry-over is/are, at least in several of the cases. I can FOLLOW the thread of continuity, even while the ANTASKARANA [Consciousness-thread, the complement of the Sutratma, or Life-Thread] is still being built. We will be crossing that bridge back & forth for several lifetimes more ... you, me and everyone we know, pretty much. But does it matter in the least if Thomas doesn't believe in all this?
Nope.
Does it make it any less true?
Nope.
Sounds quite interesting. I like the notion of fractals, recalling a snippet from discussions some years back. Now consider: Each ATOM mirrors the Perfection of Godhead, revealing the TRINITY, the Septenate and also the TEN of Perfection when we are considering the physical permanent atom [in modern science this is a NUCLEUS, if I recall correctly]. One such atom contains literally millions of smaller and smaller particles ... and although the regress is not infinite, it is certainly beyond your grasp or mine. Same with the full span of lifetimes, of incarnation, although I have said to you DOZENS of times: Man does NOT incarnate indefinitely.Thomas said:
The only way in which the latter is true is if we realize that AFTER becoming Jivanmukta, the Soul does go on and continue to experience cyclic manifestation ... in higher worlds, eventually transcending the Cosmic Physical plane altogether, as the Buddha Shakyamuni is about to do. This moves his Consciousness from interplanetary to intra-solar, and there is some more detail regarding this in a post I recently made from the writings of Geoffrey Hodson. Perhaps you can find that post if you have the interest. Most of the subject is certainly beyond MY grasp and reach.
Such things fascinate me, and the subject of identical twins recently caught my attention as I contemplated the obvious. No one who understands the Soul would dare suggest that you have one soul split between your two daughters. Nor would anyone who has progressed beyond a certain understanding suggest that a man MUST find his soulmate, or some kind of magical-mystical other half ... although the notion certainly is romantic, and it did captivate me for awhile some 20 years ago.Thomas said:
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Shared memories? I have related incidents here at Interfaith which occurred during my college years, and earlier at about age 16 while learning to drive. The college experience was telepathy of a sort, but it was a shared dream, involving someone in the class I was about to attend at 8am that morning. I will find the post if you become interested. Had you been the subject, or I should say either of the subjects, you would at least be able to accept the relative objectivity of the astral plane as easily as you now accept the physical. More likely the dream involved a mental focus, but nonetheless, it was a case of two individuals returning from the astral with memories INTACT, preserved inviolate, from a literal meeting within that world just hours before.
In the case of telepathy, I sat beside a friend in total silence in his car, then proceeded to triangulate the strange & clearly instructional experience we had both been through. We went over the silent conversation afterward, word for word. It took only moments to realize that neither of us had hallucinated in the least. No one who has had such an experience, in a clear state of mind, sitting next to a good friend who has confirmed such ... could EVER doubt these things again, at least not at the core of his being.
THAT, Thomas, is what is at stake here. That is the issue. THAT is the whole point. You identify with your body, and you have made clear before that you take stock in religious notions which neither St. Paul nor the Christ, nor certainly any of the Eastern Masters has ever indicated. You act as if it were the physical body which was the PRIMARY, and somehow everything else related. In this, you make the error that most of us make. You reify that which is the greatest illusion of all: MAYA.
Your hand TELLS you the table is solid; your eyes tell you that you and I are TWO MEN, or are distinct. Again, when you study the Ageless Wisdom and begin with the proper foundation, something like Light on the Path, you will find that the physical body - in the Perennial Philosophy - is not a spiritual Principle at all. Whether you count 3, 4, 5, 7 or some other number of COMPONENTS, you must get past this confusion over the physical body.
Watch your mind, my friend. It tricks you next as you already cook up your typical response at this point. You trot out this business about MY THEOLOGY DOES NOT FRAGMENT AND DIVIDE, we are all about WHOLENESS and the mystical TRANSCENDENCE, yadda yadda yadda.
Thomas, save it. Spare me. Sometimes, you just need to realize that while there are many things you can share that I may be interested in, and certainly things that I do not know or understand as well as you, this is just not one of them.
Either we get to the point where we can at least see eye to eye on this matter, looking *TOWARD the Firmament* and AWAY from the physical body & physical plane ... or we are at an impasse. The FOUNDATION of your being, of my being, the Higher Self and Soul, is what really matters. In that, neither Thomas nor Andrew, nor any other of the billions of Earth's inhabitants, are the REAL person ...
... and if Thomas wants to know more he is just going to have to get beyond the terrible slight to his ego and stop taking offense at the realizaton that yes, there are OTHER students of the Wisdom out there who know more than Thomas does, different than Thomas does, or even who know most of the same STUFF that Thomas does, just nuanced in such a way that Thomas still thinks two (or more) worlds are at odds.
I will fight as best I can to try and show that the latter is true, and where I find I am over my head (as I am in most any discussion of the history of the Roman Catholic Church and her catechism, and just which Pope said what to whom for what reason, etc.) ... I will wave the proverbial flag. If you occasionally do so, then be prepared to hear what you may not want to hear.
Not only is Truth stranger than fiction, not only is Horatio's philosophy a little less important than the need of the moment ofttimes, not only does God work in some mighty wonderful and Mysterious ways ...
... but Thomas, guess what?
CHRIST HIMSELF couldn't convince you right now that He Himself taught Rebirth, or that Origen did, and so on, and so on.
Why?
THOMAS DOESN'T EVEN WANT TO HEAR IT, let alone BELIEVE it.
As far as I'm concerned, this makes for the end of the discussion between the two of us on this thread. Is there something I didn't answer? Did I leave something off? Well if so, do by all means ask, or point out my oversight.
My commitment, first and foremost, is to the TRUTH. I would receive THAT ... and I would let no pet notion or personal fancy trump that. When the time comes that I find that I am mistaken, either as to my professed soteriology, cosmology, ethics, metaphysics or a simple code of living, the best that I can do is to try to CORRECT my belief, then my thoughts, speech & actions (even my means of livelihood if need be) ... in order that I may BRING these all into alignment WITH THE TRUTH.
NASTI PARO DHARMA
My sincere prayer, is that one day, you will realize why this MUST be the case, not simply as an affirmation, but as the Foundation of God's Cosmos ... inside and out, imminent and transcendent. God does not make a set of rules, then proceed to break them. God does not make rules at all. LOVE IS THE LAW
And I have nothing much to say to a man who argues that there is no religion greater than TRUTH.
Perhaps if you keep peeling away the layers of that veil, you will see that Truth is much more than what we make it, yet if we make of it a dead end and a barred door ... NO WONDER we don't get to the next step.
I was not born with the same knowledge I currently have. Even what I have gained in former lives, one of them just decades ago, DID NOT arrive with my new brain, new body, new set of feelings and new mind in this incarnation. What I have come to `remember' (quite the subject of another thread) had to be brought through, where specific memories are concerned, and only gradually in terms of aptitudes and various abilities.
Such is always the case; even advanced disicples must retrain the new personality equipment in each new lifetime. Only an arhat of the 4th Initiation, as Jesus of Nazareth and Paul after him, gains an unbroken thread of continuity of consciousness from that experience onward. No more is there sleep, no more a Devachan between subsequent rebirths.
Instead of flying off the handle (yes, Thomas, you basically do this too in your own special way) when I mention Prinicples of Consciousness, why not try exploring that topic. St. Paul spoke of the flesh vs. the spirit; will you blast him, now, as a dualist? Of course you will. Anything that doesn't fit the cookie-cutter cutout, eh?
St. Paul taught that we inhabit `SPIRITUAL bodies' after we die. Hmmmm.
St. Peter is said to have healed with his shadow, when this passed over someone. Every occultist knows what the shadow refers to. Will you tell us now that it was important to stand away from the sun if the Apostle was passing nearby, lest one miss the beneficial darkess of Peter's healing ability?
The Soul is stationary, relative to the personality satellite that orbits it, periodically. As above, so below. As ALL ELSE in nature, so the human anatomy, psychology, spirituality. Earth orbits the Sun; so too does the SOUL orbit theMonad, the Father in Heaven. And as momentary Sparks within the ONE FLAME, we each arise and fall in the twinkling of an eye ...
... never ceasing, for we have been given Life, and Life - LIFE - is the one thing which does not fade away. In science, this is Energy ... OR matter. N'est pas?
Let's see, Spirit is matter on a higher rung of the spiral, just as matter is Spirit at the densest point of incarnation. ONE thing, not two. The interaction between these two, like the poles of a magnet, creates the MAGNETIC FIELD that we call Consciousness itself. Remove those poles, remove that magnet, and where is Consciousness?
Whatever your thoughts, whatever your answer, does Life then too, go away? Hmmmm.
You find inspiration and guidance in the places that work for you; I find the same in the places that work for me. I would not expect you to set aside your Bible, Apocrypha, Papal pronouncements and Aquinas, simply because the answers to most of the questions you put to me are long since addressed from HPB's day onward (or far, far earlier if you look into the Vedas, the Wisdom of ancient Greece, Rome and Egypt, or the practices of the Hebrews, Chaldeans, Sumerians & so on).
How foolish it would be, then, for you to expect me to pretend that I do not remember what I remember, that I have not spoken with inspired disicples and Initiates directly and served alongside them for many years, and so on. Thomas, you seem to have made the mistake, many years ago in my case - perhaps longer ago in other cases - of projecting your own uncertainties, your own misconceptions and faulty foundations, upon those you discourse with.
One day you will wake up and realize that consultation with Thomas before we have spiritual and religious, mystical or occult experiences ... is not a requirement. No one need clear it with you first, or with the Catholic fathers, making sure it does not contradict what you seem so certain Christ was going around teaching.
Frankly, I'm rather relieved that most folks take your deliverances with the same hefty chunk of salt that they take mine. I'm anything but concise, and I am often heavy handed, trying to show 2 or 5 or 10 different approaches to the same Truth, the same Teaching, the same core ideas. You would somehow expect me to believe that the spokes do not lead to the center when looking at the wagon wheel.
Meanwhile, at least on certain occasion I - like Christ - stand AT THAT HUB ... and, again like Christ, I think, "Let me draw ALL SOULS unto <LOVE>."
Where the Christ can speak, "Love" or "Christ" and exchange these equally, I aspire to the day when I can do the same. If I turn to you and you cannot conceive that it will ever be so, then GUESS who's one more day ... to do the things he should have done!
LIFTING CHRIST UP does not necessary mean we must be Catholic, or even Christian. When more of our world population understands that, believes in this and LIVES it ... whether they ever hear of Christ Jesus of not, we shall then have the Sustainable Society that everyone is after. We won't need to wonder any longer if we are gods, or what this means, for the living proof, the testimony to that ... will be far too obvious to deny.
Until then, Thomas, you must either take MY testimony and affadavit, when it comes to such, that I have had such & such experiences, or encounters, etc. - or set my testimony aside. And you should realize that I would never give an affadavit to a person like you, precisely because anything I could thus offer has already been deemed worthless along relevant lines BY THE RECEIVER. I will testify, till my dying day and with my last dying breath, to what I KNOW.
You cannot diminish that, Thomas.
You CAN, however, add to it, just as when I add to YOUR legitimate, sincere spiritual experiences (and there are many ways to go about this), I also gain something.
Building up, not tearing down. Affirming, or remaining silent, not doing one's best to bring disgrace upon another, discredit that person or make of their testimony any less than what it is.
When I tell you about the FSM in my garage, and assure you that all human beings will grow four new appendages next Tuesday, THEN believe that I am mistaken, or have a screw loose.
When I tell you that I remember past lives, you say far more about *yourself* than you do about me when you call me liar ... or patronize me, telling me my memories are flawed.
Politely put, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Like the man said ... just because you don't believe in something, sure as hell doesn't mean that it ain't true. One day, Thomas, one day. Your dying day?
Mayhaps, I don't know. I have no direct knowledge or insight into your karma, and I have no real grasp of why you resist so strongly what is right in front of you. I prefer to simply believe that your path is that of Catholicism ... and that for obvious enough reasons, Reincarnation does not appeal. I tell you one last time: when you assert that Christ never taught this, you seal a door tightly - and I WILL NOT OPEN IT.
Not Christ, not God, not His Holiness in Rome, nor anyone else in Cosmos ... except dear Thomas. You may be surprised who and what waits on the other side!
Namaskar
In the case of telepathy, I sat beside a friend in total silence in his car, then proceeded to triangulate the strange & clearly instructional experience we had both been through. We went over the silent conversation afterward, word for word. It took only moments to realize that neither of us had hallucinated in the least. No one who has had such an experience, in a clear state of mind, sitting next to a good friend who has confirmed such ... could EVER doubt these things again, at least not at the core of his being.
THAT, Thomas, is what is at stake here. That is the issue. THAT is the whole point. You identify with your body, and you have made clear before that you take stock in religious notions which neither St. Paul nor the Christ, nor certainly any of the Eastern Masters has ever indicated. You act as if it were the physical body which was the PRIMARY, and somehow everything else related. In this, you make the error that most of us make. You reify that which is the greatest illusion of all: MAYA.
Your hand TELLS you the table is solid; your eyes tell you that you and I are TWO MEN, or are distinct. Again, when you study the Ageless Wisdom and begin with the proper foundation, something like Light on the Path, you will find that the physical body - in the Perennial Philosophy - is not a spiritual Principle at all. Whether you count 3, 4, 5, 7 or some other number of COMPONENTS, you must get past this confusion over the physical body.
Watch your mind, my friend. It tricks you next as you already cook up your typical response at this point. You trot out this business about MY THEOLOGY DOES NOT FRAGMENT AND DIVIDE, we are all about WHOLENESS and the mystical TRANSCENDENCE, yadda yadda yadda.
Thomas, save it. Spare me. Sometimes, you just need to realize that while there are many things you can share that I may be interested in, and certainly things that I do not know or understand as well as you, this is just not one of them.
Either we get to the point where we can at least see eye to eye on this matter, looking *TOWARD the Firmament* and AWAY from the physical body & physical plane ... or we are at an impasse. The FOUNDATION of your being, of my being, the Higher Self and Soul, is what really matters. In that, neither Thomas nor Andrew, nor any other of the billions of Earth's inhabitants, are the REAL person ...
... and if Thomas wants to know more he is just going to have to get beyond the terrible slight to his ego and stop taking offense at the realizaton that yes, there are OTHER students of the Wisdom out there who know more than Thomas does, different than Thomas does, or even who know most of the same STUFF that Thomas does, just nuanced in such a way that Thomas still thinks two (or more) worlds are at odds.
I will fight as best I can to try and show that the latter is true, and where I find I am over my head (as I am in most any discussion of the history of the Roman Catholic Church and her catechism, and just which Pope said what to whom for what reason, etc.) ... I will wave the proverbial flag. If you occasionally do so, then be prepared to hear what you may not want to hear.
Not only is Truth stranger than fiction, not only is Horatio's philosophy a little less important than the need of the moment ofttimes, not only does God work in some mighty wonderful and Mysterious ways ...
... but Thomas, guess what?
CHRIST HIMSELF couldn't convince you right now that He Himself taught Rebirth, or that Origen did, and so on, and so on.
Why?
THOMAS DOESN'T EVEN WANT TO HEAR IT, let alone BELIEVE it.
As far as I'm concerned, this makes for the end of the discussion between the two of us on this thread. Is there something I didn't answer? Did I leave something off? Well if so, do by all means ask, or point out my oversight.
My commitment, first and foremost, is to the TRUTH. I would receive THAT ... and I would let no pet notion or personal fancy trump that. When the time comes that I find that I am mistaken, either as to my professed soteriology, cosmology, ethics, metaphysics or a simple code of living, the best that I can do is to try to CORRECT my belief, then my thoughts, speech & actions (even my means of livelihood if need be) ... in order that I may BRING these all into alignment WITH THE TRUTH.
NASTI PARO DHARMA
My sincere prayer, is that one day, you will realize why this MUST be the case, not simply as an affirmation, but as the Foundation of God's Cosmos ... inside and out, imminent and transcendent. God does not make a set of rules, then proceed to break them. God does not make rules at all. LOVE IS THE LAW
And I have nothing much to say to a man who argues that there is no religion greater than TRUTH.
Perhaps if you keep peeling away the layers of that veil, you will see that Truth is much more than what we make it, yet if we make of it a dead end and a barred door ... NO WONDER we don't get to the next step.
I was not born with the same knowledge I currently have. Even what I have gained in former lives, one of them just decades ago, DID NOT arrive with my new brain, new body, new set of feelings and new mind in this incarnation. What I have come to `remember' (quite the subject of another thread) had to be brought through, where specific memories are concerned, and only gradually in terms of aptitudes and various abilities.
Such is always the case; even advanced disicples must retrain the new personality equipment in each new lifetime. Only an arhat of the 4th Initiation, as Jesus of Nazareth and Paul after him, gains an unbroken thread of continuity of consciousness from that experience onward. No more is there sleep, no more a Devachan between subsequent rebirths.
Instead of flying off the handle (yes, Thomas, you basically do this too in your own special way) when I mention Prinicples of Consciousness, why not try exploring that topic. St. Paul spoke of the flesh vs. the spirit; will you blast him, now, as a dualist? Of course you will. Anything that doesn't fit the cookie-cutter cutout, eh?
St. Paul taught that we inhabit `SPIRITUAL bodies' after we die. Hmmmm.
St. Peter is said to have healed with his shadow, when this passed over someone. Every occultist knows what the shadow refers to. Will you tell us now that it was important to stand away from the sun if the Apostle was passing nearby, lest one miss the beneficial darkess of Peter's healing ability?
The Soul is stationary, relative to the personality satellite that orbits it, periodically. As above, so below. As ALL ELSE in nature, so the human anatomy, psychology, spirituality. Earth orbits the Sun; so too does the SOUL orbit theMonad, the Father in Heaven. And as momentary Sparks within the ONE FLAME, we each arise and fall in the twinkling of an eye ...
... never ceasing, for we have been given Life, and Life - LIFE - is the one thing which does not fade away. In science, this is Energy ... OR matter. N'est pas?
Let's see, Spirit is matter on a higher rung of the spiral, just as matter is Spirit at the densest point of incarnation. ONE thing, not two. The interaction between these two, like the poles of a magnet, creates the MAGNETIC FIELD that we call Consciousness itself. Remove those poles, remove that magnet, and where is Consciousness?
Whatever your thoughts, whatever your answer, does Life then too, go away? Hmmmm.
"Esoteric philosophy teaches that everything lives and is conscious, but not that all life and consciousness are similar to those of human or even animal beings. Life we look upon as “the one form of existence,” manifesting in what is called matter; or, as in man, what, incorrectly separating them, we name Spirit, Soul and Matter. Matter is the vehicle for the manifestation of soul on this plane of existence, and soul is the vehicle on a higher plane for the manifestation of spirit, and these three are a trinity synthesized by Life, which pervades them all." [The Secret Doctrine, Vol I, p.48]
Why is it incorrect, as HPB notes, to separate these three Principles or Aspects in man? Because matter, in simple terms, is the personality ... and we KNOW that this isn't the spiritual man on his own plane. The Soul may seem to be the true Individual, yet it turns out to be the vehicle of the Monad, just as the personality is the vehicle of the Soul. So we cannot properly understand MAN unless we have some conception of all three of these levels of activity and Being.
You find inspiration and guidance in the places that work for you; I find the same in the places that work for me. I would not expect you to set aside your Bible, Apocrypha, Papal pronouncements and Aquinas, simply because the answers to most of the questions you put to me are long since addressed from HPB's day onward (or far, far earlier if you look into the Vedas, the Wisdom of ancient Greece, Rome and Egypt, or the practices of the Hebrews, Chaldeans, Sumerians & so on).
How foolish it would be, then, for you to expect me to pretend that I do not remember what I remember, that I have not spoken with inspired disicples and Initiates directly and served alongside them for many years, and so on. Thomas, you seem to have made the mistake, many years ago in my case - perhaps longer ago in other cases - of projecting your own uncertainties, your own misconceptions and faulty foundations, upon those you discourse with.
One day you will wake up and realize that consultation with Thomas before we have spiritual and religious, mystical or occult experiences ... is not a requirement. No one need clear it with you first, or with the Catholic fathers, making sure it does not contradict what you seem so certain Christ was going around teaching.
Frankly, I'm rather relieved that most folks take your deliverances with the same hefty chunk of salt that they take mine. I'm anything but concise, and I am often heavy handed, trying to show 2 or 5 or 10 different approaches to the same Truth, the same Teaching, the same core ideas. You would somehow expect me to believe that the spokes do not lead to the center when looking at the wagon wheel.
Meanwhile, at least on certain occasion I - like Christ - stand AT THAT HUB ... and, again like Christ, I think, "Let me draw ALL SOULS unto <LOVE>."
Where the Christ can speak, "Love" or "Christ" and exchange these equally, I aspire to the day when I can do the same. If I turn to you and you cannot conceive that it will ever be so, then GUESS who's one more day ... to do the things he should have done!
LIFTING CHRIST UP does not necessary mean we must be Catholic, or even Christian. When more of our world population understands that, believes in this and LIVES it ... whether they ever hear of Christ Jesus of not, we shall then have the Sustainable Society that everyone is after. We won't need to wonder any longer if we are gods, or what this means, for the living proof, the testimony to that ... will be far too obvious to deny.
Until then, Thomas, you must either take MY testimony and affadavit, when it comes to such, that I have had such & such experiences, or encounters, etc. - or set my testimony aside. And you should realize that I would never give an affadavit to a person like you, precisely because anything I could thus offer has already been deemed worthless along relevant lines BY THE RECEIVER. I will testify, till my dying day and with my last dying breath, to what I KNOW.
You cannot diminish that, Thomas.
You CAN, however, add to it, just as when I add to YOUR legitimate, sincere spiritual experiences (and there are many ways to go about this), I also gain something.
Building up, not tearing down. Affirming, or remaining silent, not doing one's best to bring disgrace upon another, discredit that person or make of their testimony any less than what it is.
When I tell you about the FSM in my garage, and assure you that all human beings will grow four new appendages next Tuesday, THEN believe that I am mistaken, or have a screw loose.
When I tell you that I remember past lives, you say far more about *yourself* than you do about me when you call me liar ... or patronize me, telling me my memories are flawed.
Politely put, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Like the man said ... just because you don't believe in something, sure as hell doesn't mean that it ain't true. One day, Thomas, one day. Your dying day?
Mayhaps, I don't know. I have no direct knowledge or insight into your karma, and I have no real grasp of why you resist so strongly what is right in front of you. I prefer to simply believe that your path is that of Catholicism ... and that for obvious enough reasons, Reincarnation does not appeal. I tell you one last time: when you assert that Christ never taught this, you seal a door tightly - and I WILL NOT OPEN IT.
Not Christ, not God, not His Holiness in Rome, nor anyone else in Cosmos ... except dear Thomas. You may be surprised who and what waits on the other side!
Namaskar
L
Lunitik
Guest
I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic... none differentiate capital and small letters - thus this thread is somewhat pointless.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
I am given an image and I would share it.
Imagine sand passing back and forth, and for the sake of argument let us envision the hands that are passing it thus. Each person sees something slightly different; how many ideas are there?
It can mean a few things, but I want to keep it simple.
PLAYING upon these sands, as a musician plays upon vibrating strings, the Music of the Spheres, shaping and conditioning through the science of vibration ... all grains of sand in Cosmos.
What happens when a very great heat is applied to sand? At a certain temperature ...
... grains fuse, and in the case of lightning strikes the resulting structures are called fulgurites.
Are the grains of sand gone? Has anything been lost?
Individuality, some will observe. The individual unique identity of each particular grain of sand has been lost, submerged within the greater whole - even if the latter may yet preserve all of the same substance, just rearranged (in perhaps more ways than one).
Does this occur to an entire beach? Perhaps not, even in an electrical storm. Only certain areas are brought together in this fusing process, and we can clearly see that the entire beach does not undergo this transformation at once.
In actuality, I suspect the grains of sand don't really mind that much ... this transformation they undergo. Perhaps, if we are in doubt, we should stop and ask one. Or a few. Maybe even sample the fulgurite Community, in whichever case of so many 100s, perhaps many 1000s or more ... Friends, How do you feel about this? Are you less, or are you more?
Not is your life easy, or easier. Not, have you ceased asking questions, and smiling at the wonder, at the Mystery? But has your wonder, Mystery and earnest inquiry into the nature of things increased as a result of your transformative experience? And most importantly of all, do you feel that you are, overall, a more productive, empowered ON TASK and ON PURPOSE contributing piece of fulgurite after the things you have been through?
Well Mr. Fulgurite, whatever you say, I would like to hear about this Community over here ... and this Community over here ... and the group of Fulgurites over there, they seem to wanting to share something. And lo!
Every Fulgurite Community on this great Big ROCK happens to be singing in unison, perhaps in response to those magnetic waves ... Oddball doesn't like to have to keep clunkin' people on the head about the negative waves ... thus each person becomes a Receiver, as well as a Transmitter - and we choose, yes We do, within the limitations of both Karma and whatever we are willing to expend [commit, devote, Sacrifice and make Holy] within our own lives: *what to receive*, *what to pass through* and *what to condition and distribute*. This is all it really amounts to.
Sand, sifting back and forth ... and Contemplation:
Not whether to respond to the Currents of Space [Sendings] ... HOW
One Mahatma gave this advice:
TRY
I fully expect he would smile in polite deference to a little green Jedi.
It is wonderful to walk on the beach and see the white sand in the sun.
What fun to build these things in the ... oh look, here comes a w-... !
Thank Goodness I do not have to wait for an individual communion with each and every grain of sand before I may put my Foot forward and Walk.
Thank Goodness every grain of sand is there to support me.
Namaskar and Salams to the G.A.
Imagine sand passing back and forth, and for the sake of argument let us envision the hands that are passing it thus. Each person sees something slightly different; how many ideas are there?
It can mean a few things, but I want to keep it simple.
PLAYING upon these sands, as a musician plays upon vibrating strings, the Music of the Spheres, shaping and conditioning through the science of vibration ... all grains of sand in Cosmos.
What happens when a very great heat is applied to sand? At a certain temperature ...
... grains fuse, and in the case of lightning strikes the resulting structures are called fulgurites.
Are the grains of sand gone? Has anything been lost?
Individuality, some will observe. The individual unique identity of each particular grain of sand has been lost, submerged within the greater whole - even if the latter may yet preserve all of the same substance, just rearranged (in perhaps more ways than one).
Does this occur to an entire beach? Perhaps not, even in an electrical storm. Only certain areas are brought together in this fusing process, and we can clearly see that the entire beach does not undergo this transformation at once.
In actuality, I suspect the grains of sand don't really mind that much ... this transformation they undergo. Perhaps, if we are in doubt, we should stop and ask one. Or a few. Maybe even sample the fulgurite Community, in whichever case of so many 100s, perhaps many 1000s or more ... Friends, How do you feel about this? Are you less, or are you more?
Not is your life easy, or easier. Not, have you ceased asking questions, and smiling at the wonder, at the Mystery? But has your wonder, Mystery and earnest inquiry into the nature of things increased as a result of your transformative experience? And most importantly of all, do you feel that you are, overall, a more productive, empowered ON TASK and ON PURPOSE contributing piece of fulgurite after the things you have been through?
Well Mr. Fulgurite, whatever you say, I would like to hear about this Community over here ... and this Community over here ... and the group of Fulgurites over there, they seem to wanting to share something. And lo!
Every Fulgurite Community on this great Big ROCK happens to be singing in unison, perhaps in response to those magnetic waves ... Oddball doesn't like to have to keep clunkin' people on the head about the negative waves ... thus each person becomes a Receiver, as well as a Transmitter - and we choose, yes We do, within the limitations of both Karma and whatever we are willing to expend [commit, devote, Sacrifice and make Holy] within our own lives: *what to receive*, *what to pass through* and *what to condition and distribute*. This is all it really amounts to.
Sand, sifting back and forth ... and Contemplation:
Not whether to respond to the Currents of Space [Sendings] ... HOW
One Mahatma gave this advice:
TRY
I fully expect he would smile in polite deference to a little green Jedi.
It is wonderful to walk on the beach and see the white sand in the sun.
What fun to build these things in the ... oh look, here comes a w-... !
Thank Goodness I do not have to wait for an individual communion with each and every grain of sand before I may put my Foot forward and Walk.
Thank Goodness every grain of sand is there to support me.
Namaskar and Salams to the G.A.
No, you're making a fundamental error: Ultimate Reality is actually very simple.
There is no 'pre-human existence'.
God bless,
Thomas
This is all based on what?
There is a strong tradition that, before the fall, there was no gender as such.
There is a strong tradition that, after the resurrection, there is no gender as such, either. (Matthew 22:25, Mark 12:20, Luke 20:29)
So all this gender stuff is a sideshow and irrelevant.
God bless,
Thomas
Agreed ... but the point is, it doesn't make your argument proof, either.
For a number of reasons, which you've never been able to answer, I find your arguments unconvincing and founded on a confused cosmology.
Jiva is from the verb 'to breathe' and thus there's a correspondence between jiva and the soul in Christian metaphysics (ruarch, nepesh, neshamah, and so on... )
The point is, the breath bit is divine, not human, it is the animating principle, the principle of life as such.
So I argue, even from 'jiva', that life as such goes on, at the universal, principial and non-individuated level ... not that any particular individuality is transferred from one body to the next, so for that reason I refute the exoteric notion of reincarnation that you believe in.
God bless,
Thomas
A Cup Of Tea
Well-Known Member
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Hehe, this actually made me laugh. You have given up? Really? He has made up his mind? And you have not?
Throwing 2500 words together as a response to Thomas is not 'giving up to' me. And the way a read it, you are raving like a mad man at times.
taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
2500? You are missing a zero. I also don't post about 85% of the responses that I begin, sometimes after having composed them for hours. Why should I post at all?
It will occur (to some) that often times, a post has already had its intended effect (preferably a positive one, overall) even before we post it. In such cases, where doubt remains - or where it doesn't quite fit the True-Helpful-Inspiring-Necessary-Kind litmus test - I often make that observation silently ... then hit delete. I usually have a few posts nearly complete these days in various browser windows, so when the browser crashes, they disappear.
When did I ever say I wasn't a madman???
Just because I recall my past lives, and possibly yours, doesn't make me a lunatic ... nor does the fact that I understand why I do, as well as something about how Rebirth works (on the level of the personality vehicles & personality, as applies to the reincarnating Jiva or even as this affects the planet as a whole, other kingdoms of life and so on).
I challenge anyone on the planet to have my experiences, then believe and regard things any differently than I do. Likewise, seeing what it's been like being YOU ... would probably lead me to understand you better, and see why you make the choices that you do. From this perspective, I not only understand Thomas, or Lunitik, or A Nice Cup of Tea perfectly well (sometimes we begin in theory, coming to specifics only later, if at all) ... I would be amazed if you did see things differently. I might be inclined to ask WHY?
To thine OWN self be True!
[Mileage may vary; iow, misunderstanding self, truth, etc. - DO THE BEST YOU CAN!]
And btw, let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to ...
It will occur (to some) that often times, a post has already had its intended effect (preferably a positive one, overall) even before we post it. In such cases, where doubt remains - or where it doesn't quite fit the True-Helpful-Inspiring-Necessary-Kind litmus test - I often make that observation silently ... then hit delete. I usually have a few posts nearly complete these days in various browser windows, so when the browser crashes, they disappear.
When did I ever say I wasn't a madman???
Just because I recall my past lives, and possibly yours, doesn't make me a lunatic ... nor does the fact that I understand why I do, as well as something about how Rebirth works (on the level of the personality vehicles & personality, as applies to the reincarnating Jiva or even as this affects the planet as a whole, other kingdoms of life and so on).
I challenge anyone on the planet to have my experiences, then believe and regard things any differently than I do. Likewise, seeing what it's been like being YOU ... would probably lead me to understand you better, and see why you make the choices that you do. From this perspective, I not only understand Thomas, or Lunitik, or A Nice Cup of Tea perfectly well (sometimes we begin in theory, coming to specifics only later, if at all) ... I would be amazed if you did see things differently. I might be inclined to ask WHY?
To thine OWN self be True!
[Mileage may vary; iow, misunderstanding self, truth, etc. - DO THE BEST YOU CAN!]
And btw, let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to ...