Did Jesus Die On The Cross?

[RJM]

I doubt that very much..
Anything that you don't agree with must be "gnostic" .. sneaky .. mix up truth and falsehood to confuse everybofy .. that's what happened.
Take Jesus, and bend the truth and start a new Roman religion .. divide and rule .. the oldest trick in the book.

..in any case, you make it all about whether Jesus actually died or not.
More to the point, what SIGNIFICANCE does Jesus dying hold .. and why?

Does Jesus dying on the cross prove he is divine? If so, why?

Asking @muhammad_isa for non Quran evidence that Jesus did not die on the cross, he produced this:

So that's it?
Your whole faith depends on whether a man died on a cross or not?
What a pity. God is great!

Like some of the rarer Gnostic writings, the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter also doubts the established Crucifixion story which places Jesus on the cross
-wiki-

Apocalypse_of_Peter

and

First Apocalypse of James

The first is some cryptic reference that could just as easily mean it was only Jesus's body not his 'spirit' that died on the cross:

He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.

The second links to a collection of documents I could not be bothered to search through for the intended passage

 

[muhammad_isa]

..I could not be bothered to search..

No .. but you are quite happy to waste my time
I've already said .. it makes no difference whether Jesus died or not.
However, I feel sure that his claimed divinity is all tied up in these events.

I am quite confident in saying that most early Christians did not believe that Jesus is divine.
They believed he is the Messiah. The Messiah is a son of God, but not divine.

The Arians have it

Yes, I know .. the Arians believed he is divine, but not as divine as the Father .. meaningless gibberish

 

[RJM]

No .. but you are quite happy to waste my time

If you think it's a waste of time, why post it?

Anyway it seems suspiciously to echo the 'substitution' interpretation of the Quran passage, which it seems most Muslim scholars reject.

 

[RJM]

I've already said .. it makes no difference whether Jesus died or not.

Really? It would mean the Quran passage is incorrect?

 

[Thomas]

..so it is "an insight" that Paul apparently started a tradition of the Eucharist.

Hmmm ... not really ... your argument doesn't logically follow:

Paul's first mentioning it does not mean Paul started it.

Not completely ...

You can rest assured a supposed 'get-out-of-jail-free' card is not part of Christian doctrine.

It has no place in Jewish or Christian doctrine – in fact Jesus made that quite clear: "But he answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Mark 7:6)

I don't believe a lip-service paid towards the Prophet wins a Muslim a place in paradise, either.

 

[Thomas]

I've already said .. it makes no difference whether Jesus died or not.

To you, no. To us, yes. You are a very rude man.

I am quite confident ...

I wish your confidence in your own faith did not require you to so consistently demean the faith of others. It's a poor advert for Islam.

Yes, I know .. the Arians believed he is divine, but not as divine as the Father .. meaningless gibberish

Or perhaps it's just that you are wilfully ignorant

 

[muhammad_isa]

To you, no. To us, yes. You are a very rude man..

I'm sorry. Yes, I can see how you would consider it rude, as it is an important part of your creed.
I suppose that I might consider it "rude" when you dismiss the Qur'an the way that you do.

However, I'm used to it, and my only reaction is to "fight hard" for what I believe is the truth.
i.e. God is One, and has no partner

 

[muhammad_isa]

You can rest assured a supposed 'get-out-of-jail-free' card is not part of Christian doctrine.

..don't you really mean Catholic doctrine?
I'm not so sure US evangelists would agree with you

I don't believe a lip-service paid towards the Prophet wins a Muslim a place in paradise, either.

I understand. Almighty God is the best of all judges. We reap what we sow.
As in this life, we are not all equal in paradise.

We have to get there first, however. It is not a given.
Not one of us knows in which state we will die.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Paul's first mentioning it does not mean Paul started it..

That is true .. but if it was so important, I would assume that there would be other early "Jewish-Christian" sources.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Anyway it seems suspiciously to echo the 'substitution' interpretation of the Quran passage, which it seems most Muslim scholars reject.

Ever heard of argumentum ad populum?

 

[RJM]

Ever heard of argumentum ad populum?

Yup. 2 billion people believe in a conspiracy theory that Jesus didn't die on the cross, because of what they read in their book, makes it true, against all evidence and common sense and reason?

 

[RJM]

Arians and Unitarians believe Jesus died on the cross. Isaac Newton believed Jesus died on the cross. They just don't believe he came back to life. *

Muslims believe Jesus's virgin birth and ascension alive to heaven, but not his resurrection -- so it's necessary to construct a conspiracy theory around his apparent death.

But Jesus's closest companions and early Christians believed he died on the cross -- 600 years before the Quran was ever written or thought of.

*Or at least not that his resurrection confers divinity upon him

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yup. 2 billion people believe in a conspiracy theory that Jesus didn't die on the cross, because of what they read in their book, makes it true, against all evidence and common sense and reason?

It's not against common sense at all
The fact that it says that Jesus didn't die makes a LOT of sense. It agrees with "a Jewish Jesus" who did not claim to be divine.

The Greek Father of the Church and bishop Irenaeus in his heresiological treatise Against Heresies (180 CE) described early Gnostic beliefs regarding the crucifixion and death of Jesus that bear remarkable resemblance with the Islamic views, expounding on the hypothesis of substitution..
-wiki-

You cry "gnostic" .. a derogatory term for people who have different beliefs to yourself.
..or is it YOU who are a "heretic"

You ask for other "evidence" .. check out Islamic views on Jesus' death

 

[RJM]

You cry "gnostic" .. a derogatory term for people who have different beliefs to yourself.
..or is it YOU who are a "heretic

That's just b*******

I am conversant and greatly respect many non- Christian belief systems, including Chinese.

I merely dispute the meaning of the passage you hooked up out of Wikipedia in desperation to find some evidence.

The substitution theory is not endorsed by serious Muslim scholars, and the fact the Apocalypse of Peter was written around 500 years earlier, merely indicates it was partly used as source material during the writing of the Quran, imo.

The link you post above does not open and needs to present credible independent evidence outside of what the Quran or hadith say

 

[muhammad_isa]

I still consider the following as a possibility:-

Jesus' body, as per the Gospel narratives, is not seen by eyewitnesses nor reported upon as such after his death. No elaborate funeral arrangements and no public viewing of the corpse are recorded to have taken place. Jesus' body is removed from the cross into the custody of his executioner, Pontius Pilate. Soon thereafter, Jesus' body is given by Pilate to a member of the Jewish council, Joseph of Arimathea, a wealthy man and a secret follower of Jesus. Joseph of Arimathea, along with a Pharisee named Nicodemus, wrap Jesus' body in linen and transport the body to a nearby, stone-covered burial chamber.

Jewish religious law (halacha) forbids embalming, and therefore Jews generally bury their dead as soon as possible: "Jewish burials take place as quickly as possible, following a principle of honoring the dead (k'vod hamet).

The transfer of Jesus' body by the local authorities into the hands of a rich influential follower and execution of a quick burial lend support to the swoon hypothesis, allowing a swooned Jesus to be removed from the cross, quickly hidden away from public scrutiny with room to recover from his ordeal in an above ground burial chamber on private property.
-wiki-

..both Ahmed Deedat and Zakir Naik have argued along those lines too.
They are known and respected by many Muslims, particularly in the west, where knowledge of Christianity is more extent.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The link you post above does not open..

Hmm .. try it again

 

[muhammad_isa]

..The substitution theory us not endorsed by serious Muslim scholars..

Rubbish!

The actual Islamic position on the subject of crucifixion however more closely resembles the Substitution hypothesis, highlighted in verse of the Qur'an: "and for their saying, 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' But they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it was made to appear to them so. Even those who dispute about it are in doubt; they have no certain knowledge other than conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him."
-wiki-

 

[RJM]

Hmm .. try it again

OK it works now. Can you please link me to passages indicating the evidence independent of the Quran that is required here?

 

[RJM]

Rubbish!

The actual Islamic position on the subject of crucifixion however more closely resembles the Substitution hypothesis, highlighted in verse of the Qur'an: "and for their saying, 'We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' But they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it was made to appear to them so. Even those who dispute about it are in doubt; they have no certain knowledge other than conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him."
-wiki-

@muhammad_isa
I AM NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR QUiCK TRIPS over to Wikipedia, and purple cut-and-paste extracts marked -wiki- at the bottom. They are meaningless without references.

Certainly at least one Muslim poster in this very thread disputes your purple cut-and-paste above

Please do the work and present reliable links. I have better things to do than chase around.

 

[RJM]

You just give me a headache man. Post evidence or back out of the thread