Looking for thoughtful Muslim dialogue partner

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DerekhHikmah

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Hello everyone,
I’m a Christian who spends a great deal of time studying scripture and theology. Over the past few years I’ve also developed a deep appreciation and really fascination for the philosophical and spiritual traditions within Islam, primarily through thinkers such as Henry Corbin and others connected with the Shi’ite and Sufi traditions he studied, Mulla Sadra, etc.

Because of that background, I have a great deal of respect for the philosophical and theological developments within Islamic thought. I find the richness preserved in Islamic intellectual and spiritual traditions deeply fascinating and important for my own reflections and understanding if my own Biblical faith.

What I’m hoping to find here is a slow, thoughtful written exchange with a Muslim who enjoys discussing scripture, theology, philosophy, or related themes. I’m especially interested in conversations around questions such as:

• How we understand God
• How revelation works
• How the Bible and Qur’an relate to one another
• The nature of prophecy and divine guidance

If anyone here enjoys that kind of discussion and would like to write back and forth over time, I would be very happy to do so.
Peace to everyone here.
 
DerekhHikmah said:
Hello everyone,
I’m a Christian who spends a great deal of time studying scripture and theology. Over the past few years I’ve also developed a deep appreciation and really fascination for the philosophical and spiritual traditions within Islam, primarily through thinkers such as Henry Corbin and others connected with the Shi’ite and Sufi traditions he studied, Mulla Sadra, etc.
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Hi :)
I'm a Muslim that was raised as a Christian in the UK. I discovered Islam in my early 20's,
and am now in my 70's.

I don't know much about sufism .. but anyway, welcome to the forum.
 
muhammad_isa said:
I'm a Muslim that was raised as a Christian in the UK. I discovered Islam in my early 20's,
and am now in my 70's.
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Hello, thank you for replying. If you don’t mind sharing, I would be interested in hearing about your story and what led you from Christianity to Islam. Was it theological questions about God, or something in the Qur’an that especially drew you?

I’m interested in learning how people who have experienced both traditions understand the differences between them and what they find most compelling.
 
Welcome to the forum. The closest I get to Islam is here...and a particularly American (i think) sufi mysticism that is expressed as Dances of Universal Peace which manifests as an interfaith experience of chants and prayers from various religions organized as circle dances...some quite thought provoking meditative movement.

One of my fav Islamic talks was from an Iman who spoke of as a kid maintaining irrigation canals, opening gates to irrigate fields in August during Ramadan and water everywhere with only Allah looking on...water water everywhere and not a drop to drink...

I admire those with that level of dedication to their faith (we have a number of those here from various religions!)

I am not well studied in anything but have dabbled in most everything, enjoy the contemplation and would again like to welcome you here!
 
DerekhHikmah said:
..I would be interested in hearing about your story and what led you from Christianity to Islam. Was it theological questions about God, or something in the Qur’an that especially drew you?
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Initially, it wasn't the Qur'an.
I got friendly with Muslims, my landlord and fellow students in college.
I realised that we had much in common, and started to wonder why Christians ate pork, for example.

I started reading the OT, and was wondering whether I was becoming a Jew, and I was
reading "I will show you where to worship me" .. and coincidently ended up in a mosque,
not knowing that it was a mosque .. this happened on more than one occasion through
different events.

On first reading the Qur'an, I was put off, as I come from a Protestant background (C of E),
where there was no mention of hell, only heaven. An English translation remained on my shelf
collecting dust for some weeks.
Eventually, I realised .. hell is of our own making, and not some kind of threat.

Just a short summary. :)
 
Oh OK, thanks for sharing that is very interesting. So, it sounds like maybe it was more of the lived practice and community that maybe drew you at least at first, is that the case? And I want to pick up on your reading of the OT, are there any stories or prophets in there that spoke to you in particular? I love the Torah, and especially Abraham and Isaac, I think it is such an amazing story I will probably never stop thinking about it. Also, was there anything in the Qur'an that made you look at Biblical narratives in a new light or open up something unique in that way for you?
 
DerekhHikmah said:
So, it sounds like maybe it was more of the lived practice and community that maybe drew you at least at first, is that the case?
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Yes, I think so .. but they didn't convert me .. I came to a reflective point in my life,
my first wife giving birth to a daughter .. at a time where unemployment in the UK
was at a high due to 1970's oil-shock and inflation.

DerekhHikmah said:
And I want to pick up on your reading of the OT, are there any stories or prophets in there that spoke to you in particular?
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I was reading leviticus and deutoronomy .. I'm not a lawyer but was looking for direction. :)
..and I found that it in Islam .. first the declaration of faith, followed by the five pillars.
I assume you are familiar with those.

DerekhHikmah said:
Also, was there anything in the Qur'an that made you look at Biblical narratives in a new light or open up something unique in that way for you?
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Over time, many things .. one example being the understanding of YHWH being "a jealous G-d".
The english meaning implies that G-d is .. well, jealous. :D
..but as Abrahamic faith is monotheistic, it follows that G-d is not literally jealous of "other gods",
but that it is a sin to ascribe partners to G-d .. known as 'shirk' in Arabic.

It's a major sin, because it means that we will wander off a righteous path, by attributing
authority to other than G-d.
A sin is something that is against ourselves .. G-d has no need of our worship .. our worship
benefits us.

..and I never did understand the mystery of the trinity .. so I had no trouble at all accepting
that no man can be G-d (the Father).
 
muhammad_isa said:
Over time, many things .. one example being the understanding of YHWH being "a jealous G-d".
The english meaning implies that G-d is .. well, jealous. :D
..but as Abrahamic faith is monotheistic, it follows that G-d is not literally jealous of "other gods",
but that it is a sin to ascribe partners to G-d .. known as 'shirk' in Arabic.
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Fun Fact -

The Biblical Hebrew word for jealous is קַנָּא

The Biblical Hebrew word for zealous is קַנָּא

Notice something?
 
RabbiO said:
The Biblical Hebrew word for jealous is קַנָּא

The Biblical Hebrew word for zealous is קַנָּא
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Mmm .. I'm not a Hebrew scholar, so can't say much about how good
English translations might be.
Words convey meanings, and don't always capture that which is intended.
 
RabbiO said:
Fun Fact -

The Biblical Hebrew word for jealous is קַנָּא

The Biblical Hebrew word for zealous is קַנָּא

Notice something?
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Nice insight.
“Go, take for yourself a wife of prostitution… for the land has committed great prostitution by forsaking Jehovah.” (Hosea 1:2)
“You must love a woman who is loved by another man and is committing adultery, just as Jehovah loves the people of Israel…” (Hosea 3:1)
What husband wouldn’t rightly be jealous of their wife? It was the response of a husband whose covenant has been violated.

muhammad_isa said:
I came to a reflective point in my life,
my first wife giving birth to a daughter .. at a time where unemployment in the UK
was at a high due to 1970's oil-shock and inflation
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Yeah, those things often cause people to reflect in deeper ways than we typically do.
muhammad_isa said:
I was reading leviticus and deutoronomy .. I'm not a lawyer but was looking for direction. :)
..and I found that it in Islam .. first the declaration of faith, followed by the five pillars.
I assume you are familiar with those.
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I am. And wow, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are a tough place to start with. I am not familiar with C of E, but did you understand from the Torah about the Levitical priesthood and temple arrangement of worship? The outline and instructions of temple worship and sacrifice in Exodus and Leviticus seems to run as a central thread around worship and sacrifice, which I’ve found shapes the whole framework in a really distinct way.
muhammad_isa said:
that no man can be G-d (the Father).
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Yeah same, Deuteronomy 6:4.
 
DerekhHikmah said:
..wow, Leviticus and Deuteronomy are a tough place to start with..
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I guess I found them particularly interesting.
I was trying to put the mitzvot into my life .. it wasn't easy.

When I discovered Islam, it was a relief, in many ways .. less do's and don'ts. 😑
..or should I say they were more graded.
i.e. obligatory, encouraged, voluntary etc.
 
muhammad_isa said:
When I discovered Islam, it was a relief, in many ways .. less do's and don'ts. 😑
..or should I say they were more graded.
i.e. obligatory, encouraged, voluntary etc.
Click to expand...

This makes me think of how much I enjoy the story of Jesus disciples picking grain in the field in the sabbath. I love the account because it displays how Jesus fulfills his role as shepherd and with the authority from a very merciful and yet perfectly just God.

The issue comes up because Jesus had already been accused of violating the Sabbath by healing a man who had been suffering for 38 years (John 5:1–16). He tells him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk”—and the man is healed. But the objection wasn’t about the healing—it was about carrying the mat. Some Jews were seeking to kill Jesus over this.

They then find fault with Jesus' character bring up accusations about his followers. “Look! Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” _ Matthew 12:2. The Pharisees claim that picking grain and rubbing it in the hands to eat is harvesting and threshing.

Exodus 34:21 says, "Six days you are to work, but on the seventh day you will rest. Even during plowing time and in harvest, you will rest." In the Jewish tradition this concept is called Oneg Shabbat, which literally translates to "The Joy of the Sabbath." It is based specifically on the instruction in Isaiah to call the day a "delight." (See Isaiah 56 and 58:13-14 and psalm 92, etc.)

Exodus 31:17 "for in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth and on the seventh day he rested and refreshed himself." So obviously the law was not meant to act as micromanaged definitions but to find refreshment, we could say enjoy life a bit.

He brings up David eating the consecrated bread (1 Samuel 21:1–6)—something ordinarily restricted yet permitted in a moment of real need.

Matt. 12:5 "Or have you not read in the Law that on the Sabbaths the priests in the temple violate the Sabbath and continue guiltless?"

“The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27).

Then he says: “The Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:28). On his sermon on the mount, he had already stated that he came to fulfill the Law not abolition it. (Matt. 5:17) So he actually had full authority of these interpretations of Law.

Deuteronomy 23:25 "If you go into your neighbor’s field of standing grain, you may pluck the ripe ears with your hand, but you should not put a sickle to your neighbor’s grain."

So, he showed all along it is God's purpose and providing for humans and mercy are all central to the Law. And sabbath is pointing deeper to a spiritual and physical kind of rest under divine messianic authority all along.
 
DerekhHikmah said:
They then find fault with Jesus' character bring up accusations about his followers. “Look! Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” _ Matthew 12:2. The Pharisees claim that picking grain and rubbing it in the hands to eat is harvesting and threshing..
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Mmm .. probably motivated by envy .. they felt threatened by him.

DerekhHikmah said:
Then he says: “The Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath” (Mark 2:28). On his sermon on the mount, he had already stated that he came to fulfill the Law not abolition it. (Matt. 5:17) So he actually had full authority of these interpretations of Law..
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Yes, indeed so..

DerekhHikmah said:
..sabbath is pointing deeper to a spiritual and physical kind of rest under divine messianic authority all along..
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That's how I see it .. "the day of the Lord" .. a time to leave aside worldly matters, and remember
G-d .. in congregation.
Without that, mankind is likely to lose their way .. spiritually, as you say.
 
RabbiO said:
Oneg Shabbat does not really, literally, mean, Joy of Shabbat.
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RabbiO said:
I should have added that it literally means Delight of Shabbat. There is a difference between “delight” and “joy”.
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Thank you, very nice, pardon my Hebrew usage, I only know very little. What do you think of that then with Shabbat having the sense of delight associated with it? It doesn't seem to me that defining work as carrying a matt or rubbing grain in your hands while you walk through a field carries a delightful feeling about it. Do you think Jesus was revealing the delight associated with the command of shabbat?
muhammad_isa said:
they felt threatened by him.
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And yes, whatever they were feeling deep down, if Jesus did claim to be who he said he was, Messiah, then yes, their entire way of worship and the authority to interpret Law was now with the one who was anointed and perfectly kept the Law. (Daniel 9:24,25) - "There are 70 weeks that have been determined for your people and your holy city,"
muhammad_isa said:
Without that, mankind is likely to lose their way .. spiritually, as you say.
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Yes, this is exactly the point of entering into God's rest. It indicates the delight of aligning with God's will and purpose. Psalm 95 reflects on the generation of rebellious Israelites who repeatedly put Jehovah to the test in the wilderness and their failure to inherit the promised land. Verse 10 and 11 says "For 40 years I felt a loathing toward that generation, and I said: “They are a people who always go astray in their hearts; They have not come to know my ways.” So I swore in my anger: "They will not enter into my rest."
 
@DerekhHikmah -

You might think I’m derailing the thread by this qurstion, but I’m not. Would you tell me in what part of the world you reside?
 
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