My Issue With Religion

[rupert333]

Not all religion. I do have beliefs, myself.

I have an issue with the notion of being punished by a deity.

It seems to me that we have no choice about who we are. All our faculties, good or bad, are put there by luck.

And are not truly part of us...if we are a soul.

A soul, surely, is a blank slate in the Abrahamic faiths. It has no bent. No Proclivities, no personality...unless God has charged it with one.

In the new age arena we do, some say, become tainted by past lives.

But ultimately none of our traits are really us.

Yet if we have no capacity for faith in a deity...we get punished? Even tortured? Forever?

How is that my fault that I have no faith? My blank soul is being manipulated by past events and DNA. How is it I am to be punished? Not allowed entrance to heaven? If someone is to mention free will at this stage in my essay? No. You have missed the point. If someone is to suggest that our souls are all different from conception? That is just another layer of luck and nothing to do with me. Yet if I happen to have a better soul I am rewarded over those who had worse luck. What manner of God plays with souls like that?

For some religions then the process of life is just a God making lots of people and then watching them work through the world just to be sorted into wheat and chaff. A process that is not necessary for a perfect, all powerful entity. He could just make us all perfect from day one. If he cannot do that...then we need to question his power.

What say you?

 

[wil]

What say you?

Me? Defend an invisible all powerful vengeful creator entity? Not likely.

But defend multiple belief systems created by man to attempt to govern humans, to increase the number of humans that are humane thru parables and metaphor? Belief systems that provide them comfort in times of trouble, in grief, and old age?

Yeah...I do that.

 

[iBrian]

What say you?

Welcome to IO.

And I agree - in my personal worldview there's no place for punishment. It's a placeholder for wanting revenge on people you think have wronged you and others. I don't believe in it. I don't think the Universe does either.

 

[muhammad_isa]

He could just make us all perfect from day one..

What do you mean by "perfect"?
The angels are perfect, in as much as they cannot intentionally choose sin, and so are not held responsible for their actions.

If he cannot do that...then we need to question his power.

It is not a case of "cannot" .. G-d chooses to create us as we are.
i.e. responsible for our actions

 

[muhammad_isa]

..in my personal worldview there's no place for punishment..

Easy to say .. but as a parent, I saw my wife punishing the kids .. and didn't stop her.
I knew it would make her life too difficult.

It's a placeholder for wanting revenge on people you think have wronged you and others..

..not so much revenge, as a warning .. like physical pain is a warning.

I don't believe in it..

I think you are referring to "eternal punishment".
I believe in it .. but not as "a god" that punishes .. but as a result of our own doing.
How long "eternal" might be, is another matter. I don't claim to know.

I acknowledge that physical and mental pain is a thing..

 

[Thomas]

I have an issue with the notion of being punished by a deity.

So do I.

Welcome aboard, by the way.

 

[wil]

Easy to say .. but as a parent, I saw my wife punishing the kids .. and didn't stop her.

I can only reference the US...before my time was slavery, when I grew up corporal punishment was legal and school and common in the home.

I got punished enough with a belt, wooden spoon, paddle, hand, willow sampling to not want to hit my kids.

Today what was known as child rearing and disciplining a spouse in the 50s is child abuse and domestic violence.

The authors of religions anthroporphised the actions of their gods

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Not all religion. I do have beliefs, myself.

I have an issue with the notion of being punished by a deity.

It seems to me that we have no choice about who we are. All our faculties, good or bad, are put there by luck.

And are not truly part of us...if we are a soul.

A soul, surely, is a blank slate in the Abrahamic faiths. It has no bent. No Proclivities, no personality...unless God has charged it with one.

In the new age arena we do, some say, become tainted by past lives.

But ultimately none of our traits are really us.

Yet if we have no capacity for faith in a deity...we get punished? Even tortured? Forever?

How is that my fault that I have no faith? My blank soul is being manipulated by past events and DNA. How is it I am to be punished? Not allowed entrance to heaven? If someone is to mention free will at this stage in my essay? No. You have missed the point. If someone is to suggest that our souls are all different from conception? That is just another layer of luck and nothing to do with me. Yet if I happen to have a better soul I am rewarded over those who had worse luck. What manner of God plays with souls like that?

For some religions then the process of life is just a God making lots of people and then watching them work through the world just to be sorted into wheat and chaff. A process that is not necessary for a perfect, all powerful entity. He could just make us all perfect from day one. If he cannot do that...then we need to question his power.

What say you?

I would think that to understand how one can love unconditionally, one has to know what is Good and Evil.

God puts us in a creation designed for us to choose between good and evil, so we can understand unconditional love. The entire matrix is founded in the twin pillars of reward and punishment, which is seen in many ways across the many faiths that have come from the one God.

We live in a word of opposites, we have virtues = God and vices =men's choices in the lack of those virtues.

A balance is needed in this creation and this balance is found in the laws given by God and men also add balance with material laws.

Our soul is given at conception and we are born on the edge of darkness (material world) and the beginning of light (Heavenly Virtues). This rational soul is what makes us human. We are given a mind that is free to choose light over darkness and reward and punishment enables humanity to survive.

The purpose is to know and Love God as God so loves us, unconditionally.

That explanation is like a pinhead compared to the expanse of creation. Our potential is unlimited. We are created in the image of God.

Baha'u'llah put it this way,

".....Likewise, reflect upon the perfection of man’s creation, and that all these planes and states are folded up and hidden away within him.

Dost thou deem thyself a small and puny form, When thou foldest within thyself the greater world?

We must therefore labour to destroy the animal condition, till the meaning of humanity cometh to light...." Link

“O Son of Man! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.” (#3 Arabic, online at reference.bahai.org)

Regards Tony

 

[Longfellow]

I have an issue with the notion of being punished by a deity.

So do I.

Me too.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Me too.

Nobody likes being punished .. I think that's the whole point.

If we are in severe pain, we want to have relief from it .. maybe through medicine, or such
like. That goes whether it is physical or mental pain.

Of course, it would be better if we could avoid the situation altogether .. that's the point.

 

[iBrian]

I believe in it .. but not as "a god" that punishes .. but as a result of our own doing.

Yes, I very much agree with that. As opposed to a special reality made just to make people feel pain for the satisfaction of a higher being of love, which seems nonsensical.

 

[koinonos]

What say you?

It is an interesting consideration, though somewhat limited.

My view on that is the following: the DNA, particular inclinations, the external circumstances vary. But essentially, we are all born to love oneself above God and the world more than neighbour, so from birth, no matter the other factors, we do not love the truth and good for their own sake. So, no matter the other circumstancses we are not regenerated. And how do we proceed from that point, which is the original point for us, is another thing. And from what I have seeen, I cannot say that those who are just born in everything reasonably adequate, and necessarily willing to progress further, for they consider that everything is just fine for them, that they are almost immediately regenerated. If you read the story about the prodigal son, consider the disposition of the son who never went aware, he was not even minimally inspired by charity, though could have. So, the external circumstances are not in themselves any "advantage", at least, in the spiritual matters.

I suppose that with regard to the overall circumstances of the human race, the Lord may have wanted to give a certain degree of freedom to the human race in its generations, so that not only the human may relate to the Lord as the Father with regard to the spiritual life, but also, that parents may have a degree of as it were responsibility over their children and their upbringing. So, depending on the lives of the generations, how they sow, so shall they reap. And so - on the natural plane - parents may see how their lives and following the Lord, etc has its own result on their procreations, and also children can learn from that, - even on the natural plane. So, that they can learn from it, even if they choose to learn slow from the spiritual instructions. For some, no matter the circumstances, can choose to be deaf to the spiritual instructions, but they can learn from the natural cause and effect principles.

But with regard to the spiritual plane, it is up to a free choice how to react, how deep, how long, how accurate. Whether to seek for what is true or not, still more the genuine true and genuine good, or not. Those essentially determinatives of the eternal welfare, and they are open despite the external circumstances. There are of course the various particulars, for instance, the fate of those who died as little children, but even those things are covered adequately in the literature, clamining to be from the Lord. Briefly: those who die as children, all go to heaven.

 

[beechan]

Not all religion. I do have beliefs, myself.

I have an issue with the notion of being punished by a deity.

It seems to me that we have no choice about who we are. All our faculties, good or bad, are put there by luck.

And are not truly part of us...if we are a soul.

A soul, surely, is a blank slate in the Abrahamic faiths. It has no bent. No Proclivities, no personality...unless God has charged it with one.

In the new age arena we do, some say, become tainted by past lives.

But ultimately none of our traits are really us.

Yet if we have no capacity for faith in a deity...we get punished? Even tortured? Forever?

How is that my fault that I have no faith? My blank soul is being manipulated by past events and DNA. How is it I am to be punished? Not allowed entrance to heaven? If someone is to mention free will at this stage in my essay? No. You have missed the point. If someone is to suggest that our souls are all different from conception? That is just another layer of luck and nothing to do with me. Yet if I happen to have a better soul I am rewarded over those who had worse luck. What manner of God plays with souls like that?

For some religions then the process of life is just a God making lots of people and then watching them work through the world just to be sorted into wheat and chaff. A process that is not necessary for a perfect, all powerful entity. He could just make us all perfect from day one. If he cannot do that...then we need to question his power.

What say you?

It sounds to me that you feel 'punished' for just 'not believing' that deity.
In fact, you were punished for the sins you have done in your lifetime.
Even believers were punished for that.

 

[EricPH]

I got punished enough with a belt, willow sampling

Me too, and on reflection, I don't think it was a bad thing. There are consequences for our actions, we can hurt others, we should learn respect and accountability.

Children today can run riot, and there is very little that can be done. I hear lads today say they have three or four baby mums. They have little or no responsibility for the children they leave behind.

We allow around twenty thousand people to starve to death every day, plus all the wars, murders rapes. Should all these crimes go unpunished?

From a Christian perception, we have a God who loves us. Jesus loves us as he loves himself, he died for us. The only way any of us can gain salvation is through the grace, mercy and forgiveness of God, not through our own efforts.

In order to see a merciful and forgiving God, we have to learn to forgive and be merciful too.
My2c.

 

[Carlos]

I guess the punishment of the souls "forever" is no other thing but a conventional idea born from certain religion denomination(s).

What the scriptures clearly say is that the souls of sinners will be burnt, after that: finito, gone, no more.

The phrase "the wages for sin is death".

Parables are not to be taken as prophesies, and prophesies in the scriptures are not to be taken literally, such mean something of course, but are in need of interpretation not so literal understanding.

If by any chance a person dies as sinner without repentance, the punishment will be death.

My personal concern is not dying and exist no more after being judged, my concern is if I really want to live forever. You know, such is also a choice, and while you are in this life, you can follow your god or just ignore him.

Lets say you have decided to ignore him. OK, then you live and enjoy life the way you want it. That is your decision.

However, even when you have decided to ignore the creator, you have certain concerns that, hmm, well, you start to think about the "punishment" sometimes, then In this case you will be like the teenager who escaped from home for a night and went with friends to smoke, drink and dance in a party. However, rather than having fun, you start to feel bad from time to time thinking that at your return your parents will punish you, that you are going to be grounded, and so forth.

If that is your case, why did you escape from home that night in the first place?

You see, if you are going to believe and obey a god, then do it, but if you decide not to follow a deity, then just forget about it and have a nice life. Just don't hurt anyone.

The worst thing we can do in life if making it problematic to ourselves.

 

[rupert333]

What do you mean by "perfect"?
The angels are perfect, in as much as they cannot intentionally choose sin, and so are not held responsible for their actions.


It is not a case of "cannot" .. G-d chooses to create us as we are.
i.e. responsible for our actions

perfect? capable of seeing through all manipulation from the world God created and the urges our dna(also put there by God).

If free will overpowers all taint from dna and life events then all people would do the right thing, all the time...but they don't. so either free will doesn't exist or some are born bad...which is god's fault.

Why do some become evil? It is not free will. so why?

 

[rupert333]

I would think that to understand how one can love unconditionally, one has to know what is Good and Evil.


Regards Tony

It's the opposite, surely.

You seem to think we are given a choice, yet most good people tend to be reasonably well educated and working and of a certain nature. We all know not to stray into certain areas of our cities even during the day. That proves free will is a weak force or even not there at all. Why does one man who is abused carry on that abuse with others while another abused man doesn't?

It is surely dependant on many factors. Simply knowing good from evil is not an excuse. Because the mind weighing things up is the very thing that has been weighed down by bad experiences and the urges put there by God's DNA.

I ask you to concentrate on this and this alone: if all souls are blank and equal before being put into a body then why does one soul choose evil? while another does not? I think you are shying away from this argument. I think you see a hole in your logic. Not that you are using logic, if I may be so bold.

Either the soul that chooses evil is tainted by life/dna to the point that they cannot think about doing good, or those souls were not equal to begin with.

No man should be judged for these reasons. Only God should be punished for our evils.

You could argue that all taint can be overcome by free will. But that doesn't happen, obviously. So why does one man do evil if it is not out of choice?

 

[rupert333]

Nobody likes being punished .. I think that's the whole point.

If we are in severe pain, we want to have relief from it .. maybe through medicine, or such
like. That goes whether it is physical or mental pain.

Of course, it would be better if we could avoid the situation altogether .. that's the point.

You could argue that there is no free will and only punishment would motivate/guide us to the right path. But the bible clearly states in Revelations that the sinners will go to perdition, the second death. Which means they are no more. Gone. That helps no man.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..either free will doesn't exist or some are born bad..

No .. babies are totally innocent at birth.
It is their parents/environment that might cause them to go astray.

Why do some become evil? It is not free will. so why?

As above.
When we get to the "age of consent" i.e. adult, we are held responsible for our actions

Temptation to do wrong is always present, but we are expected to control ourselves.
Most people would think that reasonable.
i.e. that most people are able to control themselves .. hence free-will

 

[rupert333]

It is an interesting consideration, though somewhat limited.

My view on that is the following: the DNA, particular inclinations, the external circumstances vary. But essentially, we are all born to love oneself above God and the world more than neighbour, so from birth, no matter the other factors, we do not love the truth and good for their own sake. So, no matter the other circumstancses we are not regenerated. And how do we proceed from that point, which is the original point for us, is another thing. And from what I have seeen, I cannot say that those who are just born in everything reasonably adequate, and necessarily willing to progress further, for they consider that everything is just fine for them, that they are almost immediately regenerated. If you read the story about the prodigal son, consider the disposition of the son who never went aware, he was not even minimally inspired by charity, though could have. So, the external circumstances are not in themselves any "advantage", at least, in the spiritual matters.

So, basically we are all bad, as soon as we develop an ego? When? five? My issue is why a God could punish us for something he has caused?

Surely God should be punished if we do evil.

Free will is not an excuse for God. Of course most of us wouldn't become a serial killer. We would all know that is evil from good. But what makes a serial killer? A lack of faith that God will punish him? An urge he cannot control to hurt people? It's all push and pull factors. If I took Christ's soul and put him in Ted Bundy's body at birth...what would happen? If Christ's soul is blank as ours then he should carry out Bundy's life to the letter. That is pure logic.

If that doesn't happen...and he becomes Christ in our century/last century then why? We can only assume his soul is BETTER than ours.

This is the situation we are all facing. There but for the Grace of God go I.

Is one soul better than another even before it slips into the mortal coil?

I don't see an argument that defeats this logic. Nobody should be punished by God...therefore the Bible, the Koran are fiction.