Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?
- Thread starter rstrats
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You are on a forum where people.have a variety of ppinions and beliefs Christianity varies, you ain't preaching to a.choir.
Firstly, you asked and I answered.
Secondly, the topic is not asking for opinions.
And with regard to beliefs, the only beliefs involved would be the belief that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week, the belief that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and the belief that the Messiah was using common figure of speech.
Also, what do you I think I'm preaching?
Sorry to disappoint....but 300 posts and no movement, no new information.
If my 4 wheeler which i took down the arroyo got high centered and I couldn't get it moving the direction I wanted. I would quit spinning my wheels in the sand and bring in the people who know what they are doing and get it back on track. My back is sore, I'm done pushing and it aint my truck.
If my 4 wheeler which i took down the arroyo got high centered and I couldn't get it moving the direction I wanted. I would quit spinning my wheels in the sand and bring in the people who know what they are doing and get it back on track. My back is sore, I'm done pushing and it aint my truck.
Are you looking anywhere else, besides here?
Your question:
I happened across this discussion:
How does the rule of "part of the day is considered a whole day" work?
Which address just the question.
Of course, this is not set in the 1st century, but then again, Judaism tends to follow a tradition ... so you might inquire there to see how far back that tradition reaches?
Your problem here is twofold:
1: For those who believe in a Friday crucifixion, the question might be important to you, but not to them.
2: Those who believe – based on Gospel of John – that the crucifixion happened earlier in the week, the question doesn't arise.
As the only Christians I know who are well-versed in 1st century Hebrew and have some historical insight are usually quite serious scholars, and are sadly not found here.
You'd have more luck pursuing the question at some Hebrew resource, rather than a Christian one?
Yes.
Doesn't need to be. If someone believes that the crucifixion took place of the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week, they would have to realize that there couldn't be at least a portion of each one of three actual daytimes and at least a portion of each one of three actual night times within that time frame.
OK. Tackle things in order:
Your original question was – "I wonder if anyone knows of any writing from the first century or before that shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?"
To which the answer is – yes – biblically, the phrase three days and three nights is used idiomatically, as shown by the following:
1 Samuel 30:12 13:
"And they gave him a piece of a cake of figs, and two clusters of raisins: and when he had eaten, his spirit came again to him: for he had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights. And David said unto him, To whom belongest thou? and whence art thou? And he said, I am a young man of Egypt, servant to an Amalekite; and my master left me, because three days agone I fell sick."
In his own words, the young man says he fell ill three days ago. So we may suppose that if today is Thursday, he could well have fallen ill on the Tuesday ... the point here is that the phrase 'three days and three nights' is an emphatic idiom to suggest his poor condition. From his own account, he was ill two days and two nights, and rescued on the third day.
Esther 4:15-16 & 5:1
"Then Esther told them to reply to Mordecai: 'Go, gather all the Jews who are present in Shushan, and fast for me; neither eat nor drink for three days, night or day. My maids and I will fast likewise. And so I will go to the king, which is against the law; and if I perish, I perish!' ... Now it happened on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king’s palace, across from the king’s house, while the king sat on his royal throne in the royal house, facing the entrance of the house."
So Esther declares she will not eat nor drink for three days, "night or day", but in fact presents herself to the king on the third day. Again, the "three days and three nights" is used in an idiomatic sense for emphasis.
Coming closer to period, Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who in the 1st century, is quoted as saying:
"A day and night are an Onah ('a portion of time') and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it"
(Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath 9, 3)
This in a discussion of purity laws, Azariah is saying that any portion of a twenty-four hour period could be considered "the whole of it", so your 6th day people are justified in seeing no contradiction, according to idiomatic and legal Hebrew – although I doubt they'd have bothered to find that out.
+++
More interesting is the broader idiom of three days and three nights.
The symbolic meaning of the number of days mentioned in the book of Jonah
In Ancient Near Eastern literature, the phrase "three days and three nights" also appears to be closely associated with death.
In Inanna/Ishtar’s Descent to the Netherworld, she instructs her divine minister, Ninshubur to set up a lament for her if she does not return from the abode of her sister Ereshkigal. When she dies at her sister’s hands, it reads that "After three days (and) three nights had passed, her minister Ninshubur, her minister of favorable words, her knight of true words, sets up a lament for her by the ruins …" (Part II, lines 169–73, cf. Landes 1967:448–449).
It was thus also believed that if someone appeared to be in the ‘realm of death’ for 3 days and three nights that they could only be brought back to life through divine intervention. The realm of death was also called or associated with the grave, the underworld or the depths of the sea ... Also, it appears to have been an ancient belief that when a body did not show signs of life for 3 days, death was considered to be final. This appears to be the case in John 11, where reference is made to the resurrection of Lazarus on the fourth day.
Also, from examples such as the Persian Vendidad, Homer’s Iliad, the New Testament (John 11:17, 11:39) and rabbinical literature, it would appear that ...
"The expression ‘three days and three nights’ is seen to reflect the conception that death is permanent only after a body has shown no signs of animation for a period of three days, the idea being that until that time had elapsed, the soul was conceived as still lingering near the individual, encouraging the hope of revival."
This time span has then often been associated with travel in or to the netherworld by modern commentators.
Of special significance are instances in the Hebrew Bible where it employs the ‘three day’ motif to refer to the length of a journey. In several examples, a trip is completed ‘on the third day’. On other occasions, some kind of travel is indicated as taking place or coming to an end within a span of three days.
A more plausible argument is that a period of 3 days is ‘the absolute limit of human endurance’, with the meaning ‘to the (absolute) limit’ or ‘to the bitter end’. See for instance 2 Samuel 24:11–12 where David chooses 3 days of pestilence as punishment ‘for transgressing the prohibition on the population count’.
Pertaining to the use of the number three, which supports the hypothesis above, is that it can indicate ‘a conventionally complete set’, indicating ‘completeness or full effect’. It can also indicate a ‘considerable lapse of time’ (cf. Ex 1:18; 5:3; 23:17; Is 20:3; 2 Sm 6:11; etc.)
In all likelihood, ‘three days and three nights’ in the context of the book of Jonah refer to the time for a complete act to occur, namely Jonah’s travel in the fish. In all likelihood, it can also be understood that this was the limit of the punishment he could endure before it became too much, evoking the lament that he utters in Jonah 2:3–10. In the light of the mention of the fish’s bowels in parallel to Sheol in Jonah 2 that the fish is simultaneously Jonah’s vehicle of salvation and Sheol, it would appear that this hypothesis for understanding the reference to ‘three days and three nights’ is the most likely one.
Sorry to quote at length, but I thought it really interesting.
What it evidences is not simply that 'three days and three nights' was understood in its idiomatic sense, but also that the idiom referred to much more than simply a measure of time.
Your original question was – "I wonder if anyone knows of any writing from the first century or before that shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?"
To which the answer is – yes – biblically, the phrase three days and three nights is used idiomatically, as shown by the following:
1 Samuel 30:12 13:
"And they gave him a piece of a cake of figs, and two clusters of raisins: and when he had eaten, his spirit came again to him: for he had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights. And David said unto him, To whom belongest thou? and whence art thou? And he said, I am a young man of Egypt, servant to an Amalekite; and my master left me, because three days agone I fell sick."
In his own words, the young man says he fell ill three days ago. So we may suppose that if today is Thursday, he could well have fallen ill on the Tuesday ... the point here is that the phrase 'three days and three nights' is an emphatic idiom to suggest his poor condition. From his own account, he was ill two days and two nights, and rescued on the third day.
Esther 4:15-16 & 5:1
"Then Esther told them to reply to Mordecai: 'Go, gather all the Jews who are present in Shushan, and fast for me; neither eat nor drink for three days, night or day. My maids and I will fast likewise. And so I will go to the king, which is against the law; and if I perish, I perish!' ... Now it happened on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king’s palace, across from the king’s house, while the king sat on his royal throne in the royal house, facing the entrance of the house."
So Esther declares she will not eat nor drink for three days, "night or day", but in fact presents herself to the king on the third day. Again, the "three days and three nights" is used in an idiomatic sense for emphasis.
Coming closer to period, Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, who in the 1st century, is quoted as saying:
"A day and night are an Onah ('a portion of time') and the portion of an Onah is as the whole of it"
(Jerusalem Talmud: Shabbath 9, 3)
This in a discussion of purity laws, Azariah is saying that any portion of a twenty-four hour period could be considered "the whole of it", so your 6th day people are justified in seeing no contradiction, according to idiomatic and legal Hebrew – although I doubt they'd have bothered to find that out.
+++
More interesting is the broader idiom of three days and three nights.
The symbolic meaning of the number of days mentioned in the book of Jonah
In Ancient Near Eastern literature, the phrase "three days and three nights" also appears to be closely associated with death.
In Inanna/Ishtar’s Descent to the Netherworld, she instructs her divine minister, Ninshubur to set up a lament for her if she does not return from the abode of her sister Ereshkigal. When she dies at her sister’s hands, it reads that "After three days (and) three nights had passed, her minister Ninshubur, her minister of favorable words, her knight of true words, sets up a lament for her by the ruins …" (Part II, lines 169–73, cf. Landes 1967:448–449).
It was thus also believed that if someone appeared to be in the ‘realm of death’ for 3 days and three nights that they could only be brought back to life through divine intervention. The realm of death was also called or associated with the grave, the underworld or the depths of the sea ... Also, it appears to have been an ancient belief that when a body did not show signs of life for 3 days, death was considered to be final. This appears to be the case in John 11, where reference is made to the resurrection of Lazarus on the fourth day.
Also, from examples such as the Persian Vendidad, Homer’s Iliad, the New Testament (John 11:17, 11:39) and rabbinical literature, it would appear that ...
"The expression ‘three days and three nights’ is seen to reflect the conception that death is permanent only after a body has shown no signs of animation for a period of three days, the idea being that until that time had elapsed, the soul was conceived as still lingering near the individual, encouraging the hope of revival."
This time span has then often been associated with travel in or to the netherworld by modern commentators.
Of special significance are instances in the Hebrew Bible where it employs the ‘three day’ motif to refer to the length of a journey. In several examples, a trip is completed ‘on the third day’. On other occasions, some kind of travel is indicated as taking place or coming to an end within a span of three days.
A more plausible argument is that a period of 3 days is ‘the absolute limit of human endurance’, with the meaning ‘to the (absolute) limit’ or ‘to the bitter end’. See for instance 2 Samuel 24:11–12 where David chooses 3 days of pestilence as punishment ‘for transgressing the prohibition on the population count’.
Pertaining to the use of the number three, which supports the hypothesis above, is that it can indicate ‘a conventionally complete set’, indicating ‘completeness or full effect’. It can also indicate a ‘considerable lapse of time’ (cf. Ex 1:18; 5:3; 23:17; Is 20:3; 2 Sm 6:11; etc.)
In all likelihood, ‘three days and three nights’ in the context of the book of Jonah refer to the time for a complete act to occur, namely Jonah’s travel in the fish. In all likelihood, it can also be understood that this was the limit of the punishment he could endure before it became too much, evoking the lament that he utters in Jonah 2:3–10. In the light of the mention of the fish’s bowels in parallel to Sheol in Jonah 2 that the fish is simultaneously Jonah’s vehicle of salvation and Sheol, it would appear that this hypothesis for understanding the reference to ‘three days and three nights’ is the most likely one.
Sorry to quote at length, but I thought it really interesting.
What it evidences is not simply that 'three days and three nights' was understood in its idiomatic sense, but also that the idiom referred to much more than simply a measure of time.
re: "1 Samuel 30: ...13
'And he said, I am a young man of Egypt, servant to an Amalekite; and my master left me, because three days agone I fell sick.'"
re: "In his own words, the young man says he fell ill three days ago. So, we may suppose that if today is Thursday, he could well have fallen ill on the Tuesday..."
Well, let's see - One day ago would have been Wednesday which means that Tuesday would have been two days ago and not three.
And with regard to the Esther account, it might be an example if "three days, night and day" means the same thing as "three days and 3 nights". I'm not sure that it is, though.
Also, the Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah comment doesn't show any actual examples. And anyway, Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Jochanan, and Rabbi Akiba, contemporaries of Azariah, all agree that an onah was 12 hours long, either a day OR a night. "Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica". Also, a definition of Onah from "The Jerusalem Center for Advanced Torah Study" says: "The word onah literally means 'time period.' In the context of the laws of niddah, it usually refers to a day or a night. Each 24-hour day thus consists of two onot. The daytime onah begins at sunrise (henetz hachamah, commonly called netz) and ends at sunset (shekiat hachamah or shekiah). The night-time onah lasts from sunset until sunrise."
"For as Jonas was in the whale’s belly three days and three nights: so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Matthew 12:40).
Why does Matthew refer to Jonah's 'three days and three nights' when everywhere else in the New Testament, including Matthew himself, speaks of Jesus rising on the third day?
I have stumbled across a hitherto unexplored possibility.
But first, the 'three days and three nights' is significant, indeed idiomatic, because so many journeys mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures take three days. Three, like forty, is clearly a symbolic figure in Scripture, and would have been read as such.
In the Ancient world, it was believed the soul was conceived as lingering near the individual for three days, and this encouraged hopes of revival. In John, this three-day concept seems to underlie Martha's comment to Jesus that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days (11.39), thus too late for Jesus to do anything about it.
In Jonah, the immediate risk was death by drowning – he was thrown overboard. The great fish was not primarily an instrument of his judgement, nor his deliverance, but a figure of a parlous state between life and death.
Just about the whole of Jonah 2 constitutes a psalm – a lament on his current condition and a declaration of his faith in his God, Jahweh: "I cried out of the belly of hell ... When my soul was in distress within me, I remembered the Lord: that my prayer may come to thee, unto thy holy temple." (2:3, 8)
The only other "three days and three nights" occurs, as discussed, in 1 Samuel 30:12, when an Egyptian servant, struck down by sickness, was left abandoned in the desert, without food or water. Abandoned unto death, as it were, and presumably at death's door when found, or at least at the near limit of his endurance – someone with one foot in the grave, as it were, which he must have assumed if he was conscious of his predicament.
Hosea says: "In their affliction they will rise early to me: Come, and let us return to the Lord: For he hath taken us, and he will heal us: he will strike, and he will cure us. He will revive us after two days: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. We shall know, and we shall follow on, that we may know the Lord..." (6:1-3).
The Israelite request of Pharaoh to be permitted to leave Egypt to go on "a three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to Yahweh our God" (Exodus 3:18, 5:3, 8:27, 15:22; Numbers 33:8), a journey to a higher, divine, realm. When the Israelites depart from Sinai, "they set out from the mount of Yahweh three days' journey" (Numbers 10:33). Abraham’s reached the place where he is to sacrifice Isaac on the third day (Genesis 22:4). Likewise the multitudes are with Jesus three days in the mountain wilderness "and have nothing to eat" (Mark 8:2, Matthew 15:32). After his Damascus road experience, Saul is said to have been three days without sight, "and did not eat or drink" (Acts 9.9).
The great fish is simply a figure by which to signify the journey. Jonah says (while in the belly of the fish): "I went down to the lowest parts of the mountains: the bars of the earth have shut me up for ever: and thou wilt bring up my life from corruption, O Lord my God" (2:7).
The three days and three nights can be read as a signifier, an idiomatic motif, of a journey undertaken to another realm, and back again. And that is perhaps what Matthew had in mind.
Why does Matthew refer to Jonah's 'three days and three nights' when everywhere else in the New Testament, including Matthew himself, speaks of Jesus rising on the third day?
I have stumbled across a hitherto unexplored possibility.
But first, the 'three days and three nights' is significant, indeed idiomatic, because so many journeys mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures take three days. Three, like forty, is clearly a symbolic figure in Scripture, and would have been read as such.
In the Ancient world, it was believed the soul was conceived as lingering near the individual for three days, and this encouraged hopes of revival. In John, this three-day concept seems to underlie Martha's comment to Jesus that Lazarus had already been in the tomb four days (11.39), thus too late for Jesus to do anything about it.
In Jonah, the immediate risk was death by drowning – he was thrown overboard. The great fish was not primarily an instrument of his judgement, nor his deliverance, but a figure of a parlous state between life and death.
Just about the whole of Jonah 2 constitutes a psalm – a lament on his current condition and a declaration of his faith in his God, Jahweh: "I cried out of the belly of hell ... When my soul was in distress within me, I remembered the Lord: that my prayer may come to thee, unto thy holy temple." (2:3, 8)
The only other "three days and three nights" occurs, as discussed, in 1 Samuel 30:12, when an Egyptian servant, struck down by sickness, was left abandoned in the desert, without food or water. Abandoned unto death, as it were, and presumably at death's door when found, or at least at the near limit of his endurance – someone with one foot in the grave, as it were, which he must have assumed if he was conscious of his predicament.
Hosea says: "In their affliction they will rise early to me: Come, and let us return to the Lord: For he hath taken us, and he will heal us: he will strike, and he will cure us. He will revive us after two days: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. We shall know, and we shall follow on, that we may know the Lord..." (6:1-3).
The Israelite request of Pharaoh to be permitted to leave Egypt to go on "a three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to Yahweh our God" (Exodus 3:18, 5:3, 8:27, 15:22; Numbers 33:8), a journey to a higher, divine, realm. When the Israelites depart from Sinai, "they set out from the mount of Yahweh three days' journey" (Numbers 10:33). Abraham’s reached the place where he is to sacrifice Isaac on the third day (Genesis 22:4). Likewise the multitudes are with Jesus three days in the mountain wilderness "and have nothing to eat" (Mark 8:2, Matthew 15:32). After his Damascus road experience, Saul is said to have been three days without sight, "and did not eat or drink" (Acts 9.9).
The great fish is simply a figure by which to signify the journey. Jonah says (while in the belly of the fish): "I went down to the lowest parts of the mountains: the bars of the earth have shut me up for ever: and thou wilt bring up my life from corruption, O Lord my God" (2:7).
The three days and three nights can be read as a signifier, an idiomatic motif, of a journey undertaken to another realm, and back again. And that is perhaps what Matthew had in mind.
If you consider the points raised, you'll see that 'three days' in Scripture is an idiomatic device.
How many hours precisely, is something that you and your '6th day crucifixion proponents' can wrangle over – but you're both wrong – or rather, you've both missed the point.
Thomas,
Look, this topic is directed to anyone who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a first day of the week resurrection, and thinks that the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb, and tries to explain the lack of a third night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech of the time. It is simply asking for examples (plural) to support the idea of commonality, i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have been. Any issues, other than that should be addressed in a new topic.
Look, this topic is directed to anyone who believes that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a first day of the week resurrection, and thinks that the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb, and tries to explain the lack of a third night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech of the time. It is simply asking for examples (plural) to support the idea of commonality, i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have been. Any issues, other than that should be addressed in a new topic.
Why does it matter to you?