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I don't even believe an eternal state of tormented consciousness will be allowed by God for an eternity. I do grasp the idea of being punished and having guilt for wrongs committed, etc. But eternal punishment? I just can't see that is all.

I don't know, but I rather do not believe in an eternal hell. That's not how it works. It is a most silly doctrine, regardless of someone's opinion from ancient times in ancient books. Yes, I have punished my children, but good Lord had I carried on stupidly with it for even more than 10 years I...

Lol, O.K., but God is still ultimately responsible.....otherwise it WOULD be different.

Lol! Me either actually, but it would be unnecessary. God still could be here and enjoy our company without our having to know everything God knows. The apparent problem for the world is the absence of deity, at least the kind of deity we have made in our own image... perhaps that is the problem...

Very good observation... We humans love to have things neat and tidy, which, however, they seldom are. Coherence in either science, academia or religion has never been totally achieved. We are forced to live with problems, and contradictions all the time. We have actually gotten good at it - GRIN!

Well, if God wanted to, he could choose NOT to let a committed evil occur, so who IS responsible for evil? How come evil even exists if GOd is ultimately in control, the key word is control...

Heh, that's not bad actually, I like it!

Uh oh, then you're missing the point of symbolism. It points to what is beyond it, it is not the end, but the means.... don't concretize the symbol and metaphor you miss the point of it all.....it's like looking at the finger pointing to the moon, the master will slap ya upside the head my...

Can't argue with that. I can, however, wonder why God himself doesn't just get with it and come and live with us here. I mean in his own creation, the Hebrew scripture calls all aspects of the creation Tov Meod - VERY good... It's either verse 28 or 29 or somewhere around there..... I guess my...

When I went all blitzoid atheist for a while I actually asked the question why has God ever gone missing?! What is the entire point of not even being here, ever?! I used to ask Christians, Why did Jesus ever actually leave for crying out loud??? And why has he been gone for so blinkerin long...

It makes no sense at all.

Ordination always was a power move of men... I rather am unimpressed with it myself.

It is fascinating that you bring in some Gnostic stuff with the biblical stuff... I do that too. I LIKE IT!

I hear ya! I try to let that ache work for my good and continue to learn more which helps the ache be less. But yes, that is a much better ache than the good ole tooth ache! GRIN!

And actually, astonishing enough, so does the Jewish Zohar...... and the Kabbalah, and Leonora Leet in her fascinating text "The Universal Kabbalah" describes this using geometry! No sincerely! Just mind boggling and insightful stuff all around!

Agreed, but then this is true of every single kind of knowledge we already have and all that we want, so why this desire for certainty when it is unattainable here on this plane of existence?

Indeed! According to the Zohar man is incomplete entirely without the woman, and not just as a helpmeet either, but as a full partner, that includes God interestingly enough...

Contradictory to Patriarchy perhaps... Huldah was a prophetess and the Bible had no problem with that. Of course it was just probably the Patriarchs who put the Bible together to throw the women a crumb or two, a mere token, while they jealousy continued to dominate and have their way.

The part is in the whole and the whole is in the part...... so we're all good.

I do believe that is how the Zohar presents it, yes....