Psalms 22 and the synoptic Gospels

Discussion in 'Theology' started by Sancho, Apr 5, 2009.

  1. Sancho

    Sancho New Member

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    Re: Second Isaiah as a point of inter-faith unity.

    Juantoo3, if I didn't want to stay focused on Isaiah I'd express how strongly I believe that the life and teachings of Jesus do not need the crutch or the heavy hand of any state or state sanctioned resurrection theology as back-up. The lives and teachings of Mohandas Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr., to name but two, have transcendence more powerful than that of "just another wise man out to save the world". And, no doubt, both of these great figures would adamantly say that the transcendence of Jesus' teachings far outstrips their own.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2009
  2. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Re: Second Isaiah as a point of inter-faith unity.

    My reading of Christian literature makes a big point that different Gospel writers are writing for different audiences, and therefore trying to focus on different points.

    Matthew is always pointed out as specifically written for the Jews, with the suggestion that most claims of Messianic fulfilment are underlined in his Gospel.

    However, a non-Christian approach might even suggest that the text is being used in propagandist way, meaning that certain events may not have happened, and yet were written in to add colour and meaning to the narrative.

    It's quite obvious that there is a major struggle with Christianity - even a paradox - in play, in that Jesus is claimed to be God in human form, and yet there is also a very concerted effort to prove the human aspects full Jewish credentials.

    When you read other ancient literature, it's quite plain that each writer has an agenda and they are happy to repeat rumour or add their own inventions in order to support their bias.

    The Roman writer Tacitus is an easy one to draw on - he ascribes miracles to Roman Emporers to justify their legitimacy - a feature of ancient writing that is hard not to read in the Gospels as being a perfectly common device, but ultimately fictional.

    Additionally, among the Greek writers such as Herodotus it seems quite clear that certain prophecies are used as a device to underline a point being made by the writer.

    And yet the Gospels are presumed to have been written by men and yet be perfect and incorruptible, yet still analysis suggests that there have been key additions and edits to some of these.

    The end of Mark is probably the most infamous, as early versions of the text finish at the death on the cross, yet later versions have a resurrection account added on.

    So it would be easy to presume that any historical Jesus figure did not fulfil specific prophecies from the OT, but that later writers did add these in. At the time is was seen as perfectly acceptable for writers to add fictional details to their narrative, as there was little interest in objectivity, simply that the essence of the message be maintained - and that anything that could be made up and added in to support that message was seen as normal.

    The more amazing thing would be to presume that the Gospels and other canonised texts were somehow immune from the ordinary indulgences of common storytelling devices of the time - which I guess is what it's seen as a matter of faith otherwise. :)
     
  3. Postmaster

    Postmaster New Member

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    Re: Second Isaiah as a point of inter-faith unity.

    Interesting Brian. I can certainly see an important spiritual message in the bible and that a man called Jesus caused a religious movement which has had a direct and indirect effect on society till today, I'm just curious as to how far the fabrication goes and if it’s at all possible that Jesus was completely made up?
     
  4. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Re: Second Isaiah as a point of inter-faith unity.

    You highlight some very interesting things to consider, Brian, and I don't want to veer too far astray...although the subject could easily command a thread of its own. While Matthew is generally considered to have been written to the Jews, Mark is generally considered to have been written to the Romans and Luke is generally considered to have been written to the Greeks...and as synoptic Gospels they share a great deal of storyline.

    I would have to do a bit of research to see if my thoughts here bear any merit, but I am thinking it a bit strange to use appeal to Jewish mythos when addressing a Greek or particularly a Roman audience...unless there is some degree of weight to the claims. When considering the rest of the cosmopolitan Greco-Roman world, the Jews and all associated with them rated about as high as red-headed step-children when it came to credibility and "appeal-power."

    All the more amazing that a backwater Jewish carpenter cum radical rabbi should become a rallying point for Roman civilization some 300 years later.

    Now I return us to our regularly scheduled discussion...
     
  5. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Re: Second Isaiah as a point of inter-faith unity.

    No worries - I'll try not to derail.

    However, it is worth considering that early Christianity was effectively a Jewish sect, so it was important to try and address Jewish concerns - it isn't until Paul comes along a few decades later that the sect turns away from Judaism to the Gentiles.
     
  6. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    I've been thinking about a study in this direction for some time now, but a recent conversation brought it back to light.

    Besides, I am hoping it will give me a chance to try a couple of the tools and see how they work, if I can get them to.

    I expect this to be a lengthy study, which is one reason I have put it off. But with the season the thoughts in my mind are at the fore, so let's give it a try:
     
  7. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Psalms 22:

    King James Version
     
  8. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Interlinear Version
     
  9. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    I am lookiing for an online study version of the Pesh!tta Bible, it seems to be a little difficult to find:

    Aramaic of Jesus - Aramaic phrases in the Greek New Testament

    Psalm 22
     
  10. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    An interesting interpretation that points in the direction I was hoping to go with this:

    Why did Yeshua cry out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
     
  11. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Matthew is the Gospel generally considered by scholars as having been written to a Jewish audience:

    Matthew 27, King James Version
     
  12. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Matthew 27: 46, Interlinear

    Appears to be an excellent interactive resource:

    Interlinear Study Bible on StudyLight.org
     
  13. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    A marvelous study resource, but the PDF format is locked to copy/paste.

    http://www.pesh itta.org/

    Darn the filters! delete the space between the "h" and the "i".

    Another good resource, again copy protected:

    http://www.aramaicpeshi tta.com/AramaicNTtools/dr_george_lamsa_bible.htm

    Again, delete the space between the "h" and the "i".
     
  14. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    King James Version
     
  15. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Interlinear, Mark 15:34

    Interlinear Study Bible on StudyLight.org
     
  16. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    King James Version
     
  17. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    OK, just starting to get a few study resources close at hand, but the first thing I keyed on looking over my Bibles at home is that the "My G-d, My G-d" text is missing from Luke (and John).

    Now, as earlier pointed out by Brian and agreed by myself; Matthew was composed for a Jewish audience, Mark for a Roman audience and Luke for a Greek audience. Since the relevence of the reference to Psalms 22 would be lost on a crowd outside of a Jewish frame of mind, it is actually more than curious that it should be included for a Roman audience (and not for a Greek audience!).

    The Romans were in power. Therefore, from a Roman perspective, all was well with their way of thinking (a lot of it based in Stoicism), and everybody else was inferior. Yes, there were those occasional flirtations with the exotic and obscure...like the penchant among the soldiers for Mithraism...but Roman ways were the top of the heap and everything else was second rate at best.

    So the Romans had no reason to relate to anything Jewish. In fact, Palestine was such a royal pain in the backside that Rome would conduct two major wars within a hundred years, at the end of which anything that remotely resembled Judaism would be removed from the Holy Land, and at this time Christianity was no more than an obscure sect of Judaism.

    So it is more than a little curious that a very Jewish reference should be included in a text intended for a Roman audience.

    As curious to me, is that Luke neglects this very Jewish reference. The Greek angle was much more cosmopolitan and open and embracing. The "Greeks" loved everybody! Come one, come all! They revelled in novelty, they tried just about anything once...and if they liked it they tried it again. The Gospel of Luke is unmistakably the most detailed account in the Gospels, yet this passage that is so heart moving is noticably absent.

    Curiouser and curiouser.

    It's late and I need to go for now, but I think most anybody can see the variations between the KJV, Interlinear and Pesh!tta translations...at least I hope so, just on the first verse of Psalms 22 and Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34. We can go over that next time, or perhaps somebody sees something else that catches their attention (like the word "unicorn" in the Psalms?).
     
  18. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? -KJV

    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning. -Interlinear

    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou let me to live? And yet thou hast delayed my salvation from me, because of the words of my folly. -Pesh!tta

    ---

    Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? -KJV

    Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried (5656) with a loud voice, saying (5723) , Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that (5748) is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken (5627) me? -Interlinear

    Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli, lmana shabachthani! which means, My G-d, my G-d, for this I was kept! -Pesh!tta

    ---

    St. Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? -KJV

    Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried (5656) with a loud voice, saying (5723) , Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is (5748) , being interpreted (5746) , My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken (5627) me? -Interlinear

    Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying Eli, Eli, lemana, shabakthani! Which means, My G-d, my G-d, for this I was spared! -Pesh!tta

    ---
     
  19. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    "Recent Developments In Redaction Criticism: From Investigation Of Textual Prehistory Back To Historical-Grammatical Exegesis?" by Randall K. J. Tan

    A rather interesting study touching on the redaction issues surrounding the Gospels...continues:

    same link reference, concludes:

    -Randall K. J. Tan

    Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 44:4 (December 2001) p. 599-614
     
  20. juantoo3

    juantoo3 ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb

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    Textual Reliability of the New Testament by James Patrick Holding

    Continued:

    An interesting paper that helps shed a little light on some of the textual criticism ongoing around the NT Gospels.
     

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