4 Bible verses that support predestination

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by soleil10, Jun 11, 2009.

  1. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    Rom 8:21-30 " For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

    Rom 9:15-16 " For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[a] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

    Rom 9:21 "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

    Rom 9:11-13 "(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her,“The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
     
  2. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    4 Bible verses that oppose predestination

    Matt 7:7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

    James 5:14 "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."

    Gen 2:17 " but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

    Gen 6:6 "And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart."
     
  3. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Hi Sol,

    I believe these are a good start, but should be kept within the same thread.

    But I a curious, what are your thoughts on this "chess game"?

    v/r

    Q
     
  4. wil

    wil UNeyeR1

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    a figment of your imagination
    It usually doesn't take too many punches in the nose for one to realize there is no predestination.
     
  5. Quahom1

    Quahom1 What was the question?

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    Lol amen:)
     
  6. soleil10

    soleil10 New Member

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    I like to know what other people are thinking.

    Can I change the title to Bible verses that support and oppose predestination ?
     
  7. gruvEdude

    gruvEdude gruvEdude

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    Impossible with human planning, predestination is a part of God's plan to glorify Himself (which is for our benefit.)

    COOL IN CHRIST JESUS

    When only God is truly good,
    “I’m good”, how can I say?
    Jealous to make a plan just right,
    Our God has made the way.

    Chorus:
    Be cool in Christ Jesus.
    Our righteousness, it really is,
    Shine cool in Christ Jesus,
    Not ours at all, but his.

    In paradise, the plan began.
    It’s how we’re made to live.
    But we were bad and disobeyed.
    Part 2 of the plan: forgive.

    While we are chose’, we have free will.
    The plan, our wise God made.
    Do you accept the gift of God?
    Be cool. Have your debt blood-paid.
     
  8. bookends

    bookends New Member

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    John 1:12-13; 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (NKJV)

    Did Abraham choose God? Did the apostle Paul have anything to do with His salvation? Did Jesus choose His disciples (hand picked), or did the disciples decide themselves to follow Christ?

    Ephesians 1 5:6; 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.(NKJV)

    This debate has gone on for a long time and not many people will change their opinion on it. But I just wanted to through my two cents into it, I see more verses pertaining to God being 100% sovereign in our salvation. Believing that we had anything to do with salvation makes a co-author of it. God is the author of our salvation (Heb. 5:8; "He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,) But, I don't think God will be to0 angry with me if I give Him all the credit.

    One more verse Numbers 16:5; 5 and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, “Tomorrow morning the Lord will show who is His and who is holy, and will cause him to come near to Him. That one whom He chooses He will cause to come near to Him.

    I love you all, regardless. God's peace
     
  9. gilmoone

    gilmoone New Member

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    I have questioned this topic myself for many years. The answer that I have come up with, is that predestination and "free will" work together. Is it not possible that God lays out the path for us, and it is our choice, "Free will" to go down the path laid before us, or to go our own way. Pilgrims progress style. I know in my own life I have see first had how Gods predetermined plan can be altered because of someones desire to go there own way. God still works things out for the good of those who love him, but its not the same as what it could have been. Plan A (Gods original way) and Plan B (the working out for the good). Perhaps I am in error here, but I have not seen anything to say to the contrary.
     
  10. Falcon60

    Falcon60 New Member

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    The Scriptures does teach predestination. but not the kind John Calvin taught.
     
  11. radarmark

    radarmark Quaker-in-the-Making

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    Predestination just does not make a lot of sense. If it is true, the G-d is tricking us. Ditto with science (age of universe, evolution, quantum theory). Why would the L-rd give us a mind (or even for us to perceive anything) if mind and perception are stacked?
     
  12. Falcon60

    Falcon60 New Member

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    Just because we don't understand something, does not necessarily mean it isn't true. God's ways and thoughts are much higher than man's.

    John Calvin taught a false predestination. That God made some for heaven and the rest are doomed for hell. That is not what the Scriptures teaches. God in His sovereignty, being all knowing, knows who will accept Christ and who will not. Those who do, are predestined for all the promises and privileges that God has for them.
     
  13. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

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    Well then, how do we know then what God's ways are with regards to predestination?

    For example, let's say a young Christian is sick in the hospital with cancer. Many people in her church will be praying for her to get better, perhaps even conducting a fundraiser to pay for future medical expenses. Yet, perhaps it is god's will (predestination) that she dies from cancer? Maybe the church members are going against god's will by trying to raise money to "cure" her cancer? How would one ever know if this were the case?
     
  14. Thomas

    Thomas Spiritus ubi vult spirat

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    I think there's an error here, with regard to understanding the nature of God.

    People assume that because God is Omniscient, He necessarily predestines all things to be as they are. Actually it's not necessary, nor even necessarily implied, by Omniscience.

    God bless,

    Thomas
     
  15. Ecumenist

    Ecumenist New Member

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    God's not Omniscient.
     
  16. Falcon60

    Falcon60 New Member

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    Predestination has nothing to do with our future having been set out for us, as our future is often dependent on our decisions in life. We don't know why some are healed from cancer through the prayers of others and why some are not. That's for God alone to know. It has to do with whether it was their time to die or not. But this isn't what the Bible means by Predestination.


    The Bible tells us that it was predestined that those who believe and obey God should be adopted as children of God, through whom we have an inheritance according to God's will. It's this inheritance that God has predestined for the born again believer to receive.

    God predestined all mankind to be conformed to the image of his Son, but He knew our sinful nature. So he extended His grace to all who would accept the sacrifice of His Son for our sins.
     
  17. Falcon60

    Falcon60 New Member

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    How do you know that? Are you omniscient?
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Spiritus ubi vult spirat

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    In your case I agree, as you seem to work according to a cosmological horizon, so it's understandable that the god of whom you speak is bound by contingency.

    The God to whom I refer is He of Scripture and, coincidentally, in a purely metaphysical context is He of whom the Perennial Philosophy speaks, and being Absolute and Infinite, such a Deity is omniscient.

    God bless

    Thomas
     
  19. IowaGuy

    IowaGuy Hunter-Gatherer

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    Does "everything happen for a reason"? Does God have a will for how events unfold?

    Many Christians in the U.S. claim to be following "God's will" for their life. For example, a common prayer is "God's will be done"...

    How does "God's will" jive with predestination? And if there is such a thing as "God's will", how do we know if something is "God's will" or not?
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Spiritus ubi vult spirat

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    No. I think that's a hang-up from the days when man thought they were the playthings of the gods.

    Not a temporal will, no, as God is beyond time.
    So when God wills a thing to be, He wills its origin and its end as one. Whether the thing willed, if it has the capacity for autonomous activity, works its way towards its true end, or some other end of its own imagining, is another matter.

    That may well be so ... the point about predestination is that the individual has no choice in the matter. If that's true then the whole Mission of Christ is pointless and silly.

    So many may be following God's will as best they can, and be saints in their own right. Others might be reading their own desires as the will of God ... or have decided what God can and cannot will for them ...

    There's the story of St Theresa who set off on a journey, and the wheel came off the wagon, leaving them stranded. "If this is your idea," she is said to have prayed aloud, "you've got a funny way of going about things!"

    Luke is the great sociologist of Scripture:
    "And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish."
    Luke 13:1-5
    The 18 killed by the tower were not predestined for some special reason, they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Our Lord was countering the common view that bad things happen to bad people (the more considered view of Judaism realised that it was nowhere near as simple as that) ... and therefore if it happens to him and not me, I'm a better person than he is ...

    The real question is, did the people who wrote the Scripture believe in predestination? No. It was never taught, because it renders all Scripture illogical and makes God unreasonable if not downright cruel.

    The same with reincarnation, it was not 'expunged' from Christianity, it was never an issue.

    What generally happens is people bring their agendas and preconceptions to Scripture and look for supporting material, regardless of the actual context, or what was preached at the time by the people who wrote Scripture.

    Look at any academic translation of a text, and there will be a commentary on who good or bad the translation is, and that's just the translation. If you have to translate and interpret, then by golly you're into a piece of work ... So the assumption that whatever happens to pop into my mind when I read a text is what the scribe meant when he wrote it, is patently nonsense.

    Indeed it is. And the very fact we pray it tells us that, often, it isn't.

    God wills love, God wills the good ... beyond that ...

    The thing is, if predestination is real, then the idea of 'freedom', 'autonomy' and all religious doctrines — in fact all moral and ethical structures — are a waste of time, aren't they, cos what's gonna happen is gonna happen regardless of what you think, say or do.

    I think the question of 'God's will' is in need of serious review. It's coloured our attitude to responsibility, suffering, pain and death for too long ...

    ... I don't think of God as a micromanager. I think of God as a light, a beacon, and whether we walk towards it, or wander off somewhere else, is down to us.

    The predestination bit means that, in the end, there is no other end than in God ... so if one is headed somewhere else, then one's moving towards non-being, as we are not self-sustaining entities.

    God bless

    Thomas
     

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