Jesus is not God....part 2

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by bruce, Jun 23, 2004.

  1. bruce

    bruce New Member

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    Jesus is not God...................

    Now Jesus is the greatist man to ever live.He isn't God he,Jesus ,tells us to worship God, Matthew 4:10 King James 1611 edition.Satan knew Jesus wasn't God as a matter of fact he asked Jesus was he the son of God ,Matthew 4:3 King James 1611 edition.If Jesus was God why would he question himself?Matthew 27:46.The greatist proof of Jesus not being God can be sumed up in this one verse John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time...King James 1611 edition.If Jesus was God in the flesh then he still would be God and John 1:18 would be wrong because thousands of people seen Jesus alive!Who is God then ?Jehovah!Exodus 6:3,psalms 83:18.Jehovah Witnesses have the truth if one comes to see you see what they have to say,remember no one respected the nation of Israel in the Old Testament, people laughed at them .Jehovah takes meek and humble people and rises them up.....:)
     
  2. Quesocoatl

    Quesocoatl R a i n b o w T r i b e

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    Re: Jesus is not God...................

    Right well said. Isn't Jehovah the Caananite mountain god of War and Fire?
     
  3. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Re: Jesus is not God...................

    Hi bruce and welcome to CR. :)

    And it would certainly be interesting to see a discussion on Trinitarianism arise - especially with a JW to help stir the discussion. :)
     
  4. ZioNNoiz

    ZioNNoiz ZioNNoiZ

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    Re: Jesus is not God...................

    I am going to do a bit of research into the issue, but your wrong. Give me some time to go through scripture to plead my case. New user and not a guru about religions so I don't want to talk out of my @$$.

    --------------
    Clay
     
  5. Mus Zibii

    Mus Zibii QUID EST VERITAS

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    Re: Jesus is not God...................

    My view you ask? LOL No? Well, here it is anyway. I think the Trinity/Jesus is God thing evolved over time out of a gentile misunderstanding of what messiah meant. Pagans had several Christ-like characters and they were all identified as Gods.

    But here's the kicker, without the identity as God the Gospel story is extremely lame. God as a suffering man is far more touching and enlightening than a prophet BSing about a shapeless, mute deity who reveals himself to few but demands submission from the many.
     
  6. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Re: Jesus is not God...................

    Hi ZioNNoiz, and welcome as well. :)

    And just in case, I have a stack of pro- and anti- Trinitarian arguments saved somewhere. :)
     
  7. Mus Zibii

    Mus Zibii QUID EST VERITAS

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    Re: Jesus is not God...................

    I use to just take the Protestant approach to trinity with an 'aw, hooey' attitude. But I now look at it as a fairly understandable attempt to reconcile confusing contradictions in an 'inerrant' holy writ.

    Somewhere else on this forum I saw someone simply say, its God as man, struggling as man struggles with God. I prefer that to defining instances where the son becomes the father, etc. My Quja says John Adams concurs.
     
  8. Mus Zibii

    Mus Zibii QUID EST VERITAS

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    Re: Jesus is not God...................

    Welcome aboard. And welcome to Bruce. I hope he's not a post and runner, because he brought up a good point.
     
  9. Mus Zibii

    Mus Zibii QUID EST VERITAS

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    Re: Jesus is not God...................

    Here's some stuff to start off with. Since OT prophecy is without exception contested I'll stick to NT quotes:

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Colossians 1:14-15 In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

    Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the Church of God, which He hath Purchased with His Own Blood.

    John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    John 12:44 And Jesus cried out and said, He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness.

     
  10. Quesocoatl

    Quesocoatl R a i n b o w T r i b e

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    Re: Jesus is not God...................

    Amen.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. arthra

    arthra A friend

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    Jesus a Manifestation of God:

    Bruce wrote:

    "Now Jesus is the greatist man to ever live.He isn't God he,Jesus ,tells us to worship God, Matthew 4:10 King James 1611 edition.Satan knew Jesus wasn't God as a matter of fact he asked Jesus was he the son of God ,Matthew 4:3 King James 1611 edition.If Jesus was God why would he question himself?Matthew 27:46.The greatist proof of Jesus not being God can be sumed up in this one verse John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time...King James 1611 edition.If Jesus was God in the flesh then he still would be God and John 1:18 would be wrong because thousands of people seen Jesus alive!Who is God then ?..."

    My reply:

    The Baha'i view is that God was perfectly reflected or manifested in Jesus... Baha'is call this a Manifestation of God and believe other Messengers of God have also been in this category...Sometimes a Manifestation is speaking from the perspective of God and other times as a man, thus you have a seeming contradiction in His sayings.

    - Art
     
  12. bruce

    bruce New Member

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    Look what Jesus Christ said John 4:23,24 "But the hour cometh and now is,when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth:for the Father seeketh such to worship him.God is a Spirit:and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."Now Jesus was alive when he said this now if Jesus was God wouldn't he have said you worship me in spirit and truth?This is whats wrong with the world they have been fooled by Satan.Satan is putting thoughts into peoples mind confusing them.Pitting Jehovah vs Jesus.It's not like that.If you remember this you might be able to see the truth.Satan's greatist trick is to convince people he isn't real!!!one other thing People who worship Jesus explain what Jesus meant in Matthew 5:5 if everyone who goes to"heaven or hell"when they die who are these people?The answer is there........:)
     
  13. Avinash

    Avinash New Member

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    Namaskar Bruce,

    It is most unusual for any kind of guru to claim his own status directly. So when Jesus teaches in public, he will never reveal openly how his initiated disciples should regard him. Rather it would follow automatically from the secret meditation instructions (which can of course not be found in the Christian Bible).

    So quoting the Christian New Testament is not going to solve this matter at all.
     
  14. iBrian

    iBrian Peace, Love and Unity Staff Member

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    Just to point out that I've merged the part 1 and part 2 of this thread (bruce, please keep to the same thread, instead of gratuitousyl starting multiple threads about the same topic). also: thread moved to Christianity.
     
  15. Mus Zibii

    Mus Zibii QUID EST VERITAS

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    I liked this thread and it died. What happened to ZioNNoiz?

    I've been trying to look at the NT testament as if it were flawless and see it from Bruce's point of view. One thing that keeps coming up is the disregard for the epistles. Many of them are pseudonymous, and the legit ones can be argued to contain pious additions. However, many of the often skimmed over epistles were written well before a gospel tradition took hold. The traditional order of the english bible is misleading by putting the gospels first, as much to imply that Jesus came, did all these things that were recorded and then these other fellas came along and pondered his actions. This brings up the question, does age equate legitimacy, and should Paul be looked at as having more credibility than the anonymous gospel writers? If so, without a doubt they looked at messianic predictions derived from the OT to be the embodiment of God.
     
  16. shannon

    shannon New Member

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    Hi Bruce. You appear to have a habit of posting a catch all statement and arrogantly avoiding any responses... which is very consistent with my experience with JW's. They cannot listen and reason with you... they are always trying to 'convince' you of their own reasoning. Very poor listeners. Why? Fear of thinking anything other than what the WT teaches, and because you don't know the Holy Spirit who if you did know... could guide you... intead of the WT organization guiding you. Faith in the seen is not faith at all. Compare Holy Spirit with WT.

    So... Please answer these 4 questions.

    1. Did Jesus accept worship?

    2. Does the WT allow worship of Jesus or not? Has that always been their doctrine or has it changed over time?

    3. Who is the only One we must worship?

    4. If the "Word was 'a' God" (john 1:1) then was Jesus a True God or a False God since there is only 1 true God (never was and never will be another, right :) and all others are False Gods.

    I am not stuck in my beliefs. I am willing to listen to you. I eagerly await your reply so that I can better understand and consider whether your God is the God of the Bible.

    Thank you.
     
  17. Mus Zibii

    Mus Zibii QUID EST VERITAS

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    I hate to continue to 'attack' JWs, but this site (after a good skim) does a better job at explaining some things than I have, and provides reproductions of examples, too.

    Here's the explanation behind 'I am'.

    http://neirr.org/egoeimi.htm

    The link to the mainpage is at the bottom. But it also goes after some other religions, so don't explore unless you want to chance being offended.
     
  18. shannon

    shannon New Member

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    No offense meant to JW's but I believe Bruce only posts and never answers because JW's are forbidden from reading literature other than that WatchTower and expecially anything that questions the WT doctrine.

    I bet he never even reads the responses... and if he does... he cannot post or he is contradicting WT doctrine which is cause for disfellowship.

    Bruce can you confirm or deny this please? I don't mean offense... just trying to understand you.
     
  19. Mus Zibii

    Mus Zibii QUID EST VERITAS

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    You know, I never thought of that. What exactly are the restrictions? It seems insulting to say that, but my best friend in grade school was JW, and I remember the constant worry about the possibility of him signing a birthday card, or having the concept of free election stressed in class (he'd have to step into the hallway).
     
  20. Ben57

    Ben57 New Member

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    Hello Shannon,



    I will start to answer these question for you one at a time. But first I wouls like to say that I do not know Bruce and I do not know why he has not answerd any of these questions. Second to the person that said JWs are not allowed to read material from other people well that just is not true.

    I will deal with this forst question only for now and aanswer the others when readers are satisfied with this one question. NOTE: I will not use the NWT as most people are under the missleading idea that it is inacurate, so I will use may different Bibles and Non JW dictionaries.


    First I would like you to think about just what you mean you mean by "worship"? Second are you aware that there are three different words used for "worship" in the Christian Greek Texs of theBible"? I mention that because in tranlating into English some translators found it easier to to simplified renderings of Greek words into English. Unfortunately this can have adverse consequences on the readers as pre concived ideas about a word might spring to mind and not the idea that the original writer had in mind.

    I will give you the rendering from Strongs Greek Lexicon first and then from the New American Standard Greek Lexicon. The Numbers refer to where the word is in Strongs Lexicon, and the three lexicons that I have use the same numdering system I will preface each with with ST (Stongs) or NAS (New american Standard) In the quotes from NAS you will see other numbers. These refer to the amount of times that particular Greek word was translated in to English with the different meanings.

    (ST) 4352. proskunew proskuneo pros-koo-neh’-o; from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):—worship.

    (NAS) 4352. proskunew proskuneo; from 4314 and kunew kuneo (to kiss); to do reverence to:
    NAS-bow down (1), bow down before (1), bowed down (1), bowed down before (2), bowing before (1), bowing down (1), prostrated himself before (1), worship (32), worshiped (17), worshipers (1), worshiping (1), worships (1).

    Notice The basic meaning of this particular word is (.. to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand);So proskuneo is used for anyone of highr position. A Governer, a King, God, in order to show due respect for their possition. This I think is clear by the 12 different ways the NASV uses the word.


    The next word to be translated “worship” is



    (ST) 4576. sebomai sebomai seb’-om-ahee; middle voice of an apparently primary verb; to revere, i.e. adore:—devout, religious, worship.



    (NAS) 4576. sebw sebo; a prim. vb.; to worship:—



    NAS-devout (1), God-fearing (3), worship (4), worshiper (2).





    Please notice the way the NASV shows that this particular word is used in relation to religious worship



    The next Greek word used is



    (ST) 3000. latreuw latreuo lat-ryoo’-o; from latriv latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), i.e. render, religious homage:—serve, do the service, worship(-per).





    And from the ASV



    (ASV) 3000. latreuw latreuo; from latriv latris (a hired servant); to serve:—



    NAS-offer (1), serve (15), served (1), service (1), serving (1), worship (1), worshiper (1), worshipers (1).





    Now for the next word



    (ST) 2151. eusebew eusebeo yoo-seb-eh’-o; from 2152; to be pious, i.e. (towards God) to worship, or (towards parents) to respect (support):—show piety, worship.





    (NAS) 2151. eusebew eusebeo; from 2152; to show piety towards:—



    NAS-practice piety (1), worship (1).





    Word Number 5



    (ST) 2356. yrhskeia threskeia thrace-ki’-ah; from a derivative of 2357; ceremonial observance:—religion, worshipping.





    From NASV



    (NAS) 2356. yrhskeia threskeia; from a der. of 2357; religion:—



    NAS-religion (3), worship (1).





    So do you start to see a problem that could easily arise? The wrong use of an English word for a Greek word can and does cause misunderstandings.



    No the only word used in relation to Jesus is the first one proskuneo. This having a braod usage for any one in authority. None of the words that denote relgous worship are used of Jesus.



    So Yes Jesus did receive worship of honour or dignity die to him as the Son of God but he did not ever receive worship of a religious nature.












     

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