Paranormal Possibilities (and the Implications Thereof)

[c0de]

.

If two things happen at the same time, there is no way to definitively prove that one caused the other. I have experienced many events in my life which classify as "paranormal" events. Yet, I do not believe that I, or the other people around me "caused" those events to occur.

What bothers me is the question of "how"?
How (the hell) did these events happen?
What are the mechanics involved?

Such questions probably aren't going to be answered here,
but im just throwing it out here as I have asked this many
times to many people. Maybe you guys can come up with
something new.


-The Intell-


My first experience with this "other world" occurred when I was 7 or 8. The next door neighbors of my grandparents house, where I spent much of my childhood, had a daughter who could levitate people. Not objects, people. I have seen my childhood friends levitated in front of my eyes (as high as approx. 4 feet off the ground), and I have experienced levitation as well. It was a "game" called "light as a feather, stiff as a board" and it only ever worked when she was in the room and sitting at the head of the person. I have tried it many times, with many others, and it has never worked. She did not advertise this, she was a very shy and quiet person who would never come out to play with the rest of the neighborhood kids. And we saw less and less of her as time passed.

There are other events (some that I experience regularly) but which I do not want to get into. I think this one event is sufficient for our purposes here anyway.




-The Possibilities-



There are three:

#1: That girl was the one that "caused" levitation. And some people can "cause" physical events via their mental states.

#2: Such "paranormal" events never occur, the subjects are lying or deluded.

#3: Such events happen simultaneously, and the hypothesis of "causation" is just an illusion.



-The Implications-



#1 >> If you believe the first, then you might as well believe that superman is real, and stories of Greek mythology were historical events. You can also believe that shows like "heroes" are a real possibility and man actually has real powers over the physical world. This scenario also allows for the Greek/Egyptian/Hindu conceptions of the "soul" as a sentient source which interacts directly with the physical, material world. (DUALITY ALERT!!)

#2 >> If you believe in the second possibility, you are probably a materialist who rejects any possibility of any "spooky action at a distance". For you, there is no "soul", only matter. All reports of events such as the one described by me above are fantasy and imaginations of deluded individuals who should be taking prescription medication.

#3 >> I believe in this third option. I do not believe that girl "caused" anything to float and defy gravity. The two events just happened simultaneously, nothing more. However, I still do not understand HOW it actually happened. How did the force of gravity become nullified?? Was there actually some "spooky action at a distance"???

Personally, I think it had something to do with energy interactions which, although invisible to the naked eye, are physical phenomenon. I still do not believe she "caused" anything to defy gravity directly...

IF anyone has any theories on how "telekenesis, ESP," etc. might work, please share your thoughts.

 

[shawn]

I am not certain what you mean by 2 events occurring simultaneously.
I see one event.
Someone was levitated.
It seems that one particular individual was the source of this anomaly.
Unless you are meaning cause and effect.

The best way to satisfy your doubts is to replicate such events with some means of analyzing the occurrence.

Otherwise it remains in the arena of speculation and opinion.

I have had some similar types of experience, (no levitating people however)
But unexplained and mysterious.
If we were not so blind as a species we no doubt would not be so mystified by these events.

 

[taijasi]

IF anyone has any theories on how "telekenesis, ESP," etc. might work, please share your thoughts.

My belief is that every world - physical, psychic (astral-emotional), mental (psychological) and spiritual - consists of both matter and Spirit ... or Energy. These appear as a duality, with positive and negative poles, yet in the worlds of trans-personal consciousness, and in worlds which transcend human experience altogether, these apparent dualities resolve and merge into a harmony of diversities - and perhaps also a diversity of Harmonies.

What this means is that Consciousness operates in terms of what we understand as Groups the closer we move towards `Spirit' ... yet finds its greatest point of diversity and variation here within the dense physical world of matter.

But in whatever world, there is always a relationship. There is always an interplay between and amongst the various expressions of energy, matter and consciousness.

There are several ways in which the interplay between the worlds occurs. Descartes was one of the best known Western philosophers to examine these connections. He pinpointed the pineal gland as the likely point of contact between Soul (or Spirit, mind) ... and matter. Thus, he provided us a valuable hint at an ACTUAL PHYSICAL ORGAN wherein we might find evidence of a literal connection to God (or at least, to the non-physical realms of existence).

This has been explored by many, and with positive results. Consider J.B. Rhine of more modern times. Also, a recent thread here on Telepathy may be of interest to you ...

Eastern philosophies have taught for tens of thousands of years that the subtle matter of the astral, mental and spiritual worlds all resonate in tune with that of the physical. Or, better said, vice versa. Determining Cause and Effect can become tricky, because naturally we tend to sift things into the order of linear time, we expect the Cause to precede the Effect, and - as much as possible - we do like to see concrete, tangible evidence of these relationships.

But that isn't always how it is, as I've come to see it ... and we can't always just demand such evidence and wait around for some new genius to deliver it up in precisely the right format to sneak past our blinders.


So, where my journey has taken me, while considering the contributions of such men as Descartes, Galileo and the medieval alchemists, is more along the lines of examining what the `experts' have already had to say about these matters - even in long ages past. And while I have found myself high and dry on more than one occasion, I have also found that the Treasure isn't so difficult to lay hand on at all. It is, after all, "hidden in plain sight" as some are so wont to remind us.

The challenge, the invitation, the Calling and the Opportunity, as I see it, is to take whatever it is that we may have discovered (or think that we've discovered), and see just how we may be able to APPLY it ... for the betterment of ourselves and those around us - and this on every level we can imagine as hosting some form of our Being.

In other words, if I am also a Spiritual being, in expression within these material worlds of thought, emotion (including temporality) and physicality ... then doesn't it behoove me to learn all I can about:

Who I am?
Where I came from?
How I got here?
And where it is that I'm going - especially including how it is that I can better get there?

For this, I will have to be ready to ask questions, and sometimes the answers will run directly contradictory to things that I have been taught, or encouraged to believe, or even coerced to accept as the likely state of affairs.

And it will be difficult sometimes to set one thing aside, and consider that perhaps I have not been so much wrong all along as simply more naturally limited in just how accurate or in-depth my understanding has been (and rightly so, for my own protection).

I'm not meaning to come off sounding like some puffy pedantic, and I certainly don't mean to suggest you should or must believe in x or y. But what I do think we ought to consider is that there is already a wealth of literature out there that has explored the topics you sound interested in, c0de, and plenty of what's been written is in a format that we can already handle.

Some of it asks us to stretch our imaginations and investigate new theories, new worldviews, perhaps even new possibilities for human consciousness and psychic, psychological or spiritual growth. But almost regardless of where we're coming from, there are those out there like us who have asked many of the same questions, and often times their answers and findings can help us immensely on our journey.

For me, it was always the more scientific types of studies, experiences and explorations which weighed the most. I was always intrigued to read the unique case of so-and-so, but what I found most convincing was the similarity between what one person went through ... and what another, perhaps unrelated person went through. Or, if a strange/paranormal experience affected an entire group of people together, at the same time, with vivid, memorable physical or psychological or spiritual results ... such that triangulation becomes a given.

You know? I mean, when ET manifests out in the country (my parents did witness such a ship, in the woods, many years ago, though it was definitely not a `close encounter') ... was it just one or two people who saw it? If there were two or more witnesses, I am immediately more interested than if there was only one. Why? Was the single individual lying? No. We don't know that. But the more witnesses we have, and especially where good investigative techniques can be used, the better evidence we have - whether direct or circumstantial, inferential, etc.

I'm pretty long-winded today, but I'm hoping to add a little steam to the thread and see where things end up. I could mention a dozen or more books that might answer some questions for you, c0de, but I would just as soon hear what other folks have to say.

For the record, Descartes was probably right. And so are the teachings about chakras, which are additional points of contact between the worlds - nexus points, where many lines of energy intersect, forming inlets and outlets of energy both on one plane, and between them. Think of a miniature black hole if you're moving from one world into or onto another. Think of a white hole, a quasar or pulsar, on miniature scale, if you're considering a Radiatory source of energy - whether in this world or another.

Thus, there are organs, such as the pituitary body and the pineal gland, which are highly evolved physical matter wherein intersections between the worlds occur. These are anchor points, and there is another within the heart, called the Sutratma (`Thread Soul') in Eastern literature.

But there are also vortices of force, whirling, like miniature suns or black holes, within our bodies (material and spiritual), which also signify intersections and interactions between the different levels of being. And finally, there are the resonance patterns - both intentional and accidental - which are set in motion between one level of our being and another, as well as between and amongst all beings, all things, all of manifest existence.

You know: The Butterfly Effect

How? Because, from a material point of view, "we live and move and have our being" within a vast, interrelated NETWORK ... wherein LIFE Itself is one of the components (the `glue'), and the various Principles of our Consciousness are the various `players' and important factors.

From a spiritual point of view, this understanding is very unsatisfactory, because although matter and spirit are considered as complements, there are worlds wherein matter does not take shape or form as we would imagine them. Thus, as I have myself experienced (and others too, no doubt), it is certainly possible to experience a Cause AFTER its effect has pretty well already manifested in time and space ... and if that happens to be an Intelligent or partially Intelligent Cause, things can surely get very interesting very quickly.

Generally, I have to say, I do prefer to try to be a Causative factor in my own life before the effects begin to demonstrate, but if the reverse were not possible, God would be a very, very limited sort of being (just like us), now wouldn't God?

Theology to me, is actually about as anathema as brevity, but if God can't "see" it - even TRILLIONS of years before any of it's come into being even to BEGIN with - then frankly, that ain't God.

Biblically, "Before Abraham, I AM" ... and thus, Christ as Logos says in brief what I ramble on only hoping to reiterate.

But asking questions like, "What is the nature of the astral plane?"

Now that's perfectly acceptable, because plenty of people have explored it consciously and SAFELY throughout the ages, and these people have left us a record of their findings. In many cases we will find that we can learn all we need to know for the present time by considering what folks like this have had to say.

The best part of all (I love this next part), is that we can KNOW ... and anyone who tells you otherwise either has an agenda of his own, or else he himself clearly does not know, and chances are he's pretty damn scared of just what it is that YOU know.

Probably one of the most damaging ideologies or worldviews that has come to characterize modern Humanity, next to the absurdities of anthropomorphic theology, is materialism. The notion of a purely epiphenomenal basis for consciousness - and thus, as follows, for all religious and spiritual experience - must gradually give way to a clear, scientific acceptance of the very real NON-physical basis, origin and orientation of Consciousness Itself.

Once we have been able to posit the Human entity as existing within a stream of ever-flowing, ever-renewing Divine Love, Light and empowerment, we will be well on the way to understanding all other beings, including planets, atoms, stars and even nations, as likewise ... Islands in the Stream (doesn't Dolly Parton sing of that?). The illusion of separateness is an important one, and illusion, like glamor and maya, helps serve us on the path of progress. We must first learn what we are not, in order to learn who and what we are.

Bi-location, the curing of diseases such as cancer, and certainly the regeneration of the physical body (rising from the dead) ... were all studied, known and understood thousands of years ago. Arhats (White Magicians) have accomplished these and many amazing feats, just as energy has also been used for selfish and more materialistic (`evil') purposes.

We are in the fortunate, perhaps rare situation on this planet, at this time, of being ABLE to learn more about who we are and the worlds of paranormal existence. We are increasingly expected to so inquire, because we are invited and encouraged to do so. Especially when we are looking, not just for answers, but also for a way to integrate our experiences and our sense of mystery and wonder ... with the rest of concrete, practical, down-to-earth `reality' ... THIS is when I think we may meet with the best, and sometimes the most exciting results.

We may not see ghosts or auras or have heavenly, angelic visions, but we should also not be too surprised if we find that all of these have been with us all along, every day of our existence, in this - or any other - lifetime. We do not perceive it all, yet, because that would be information overload, and it wouldn't be productive. Hell, it's bad enough for some of us as it is!

I'm counting my blessings, and if my Ponderings run short of inspiration or motivation, there are bookshelves all around me, a world that surrounds me, and a Network that has me fairly well-woven into it ... and, as best I'm able to nurture it within, vice versa!

 

[c0de]

.

Shawn + Taijasi



@ Shawn

Unless you are meaning cause and effect.

Yep, I do mean cause and effect. So to say that the other person was the "source of this anomaly" kinda implies that they were the cause of it. But they could just happen to be there at the time it happened. It does not prove that they were the source of it.


@ Taijasi

Descartes was one of the best known Western philosophers to examine these connections. He pinpointed the pineal gland as the likely point of contact between Soul (or Spirit, mind) ... and matter. Thus, he provided us a valuable hint at an ACTUAL PHYSICAL ORGAN wherein we might find evidence of a literal connection to God (or at least, to the non-physical realms of existence).

Yea I used to think the pineal gland was special to back in the day... but it really isn't. They have dissected it, and observed its functioning in real time... It is just like any other organ, without any ethereal qualities.

This has been explored by many, and with positive results. Consider J.B. Rhine of more modern times.

I don't know man... this is from the page that you linked to:

Criticism

According to sceptical commentators, such as Martin Gardner, Rhine's results have never been duplicated. This includes the claim that Rhine repeatedly tried to replicate his work, but produced only failures that he never reported[5].


Skeptical Odysseys edited by Paul Kurtz, Prometheus Books, 2001 , Chapter 31: Confessions of a Skeptic by Martin Gardner

I'm pretty long-winded today, but I'm hoping to add a little steam to the thread and see where things end up. I could mention a dozen or more books that might answer some questions for you, c0de, but I would just as soon hear what other folks have to say.

I definitely appreciate the effort dude, thanks.

Theology to me, is actually about as anathema as brevity, but if God can't "see" it - even TRILLIONS of years before any of it's come into being even to BEGIN with - then frankly, that ain't God.

I agree. Total omniscience/omnipotence is kind of a prereq to being God.

I'm counting my blessings, and if my Ponderings run short of inspiration or motivation, there are bookshelves all around me, a world that surrounds me, and a Network that has me fairly well-woven into it ... and, as best I'm able to nurture it within, vice versa!

I think its the nature of the possibility itself that is so fascinating.... But the task of actually coming up with any answer seems impossible.

 

[shawn]

Yep, I do mean cause and effect. So to say that the other person was the "source of this anomaly" kinda implies that they were the cause of it. But they could just happen to be there at the time it happened. It does not prove that they were the source of it.

Causing an effect (just by sheer will power/intention) or being the bridge which allowed the effect (again a choice issue-do I allow myself to be a bridge or not?) is pretty much the same thing.
It all points to there being something being qualitatively different about that individual which resulted in the event in question.
And when it comes to this kind of anomaly I don't believe in random coincidence.

Yea I used to think the pineal gland was special to back in the day... but it really isn't. They have dissected it, and observed its functioning in real time... It is just like any other organ, without any ethereal qualities.

True, it is a bit of flesh, yet when it gets impaired in its function such as if a person has ingested too much fluorine/fluoride then they do become apathetic about a great many things.
So the human function of caring or compassion seems localized somehow in this little gland.
This function is deeply rooted in the spiritual aspects of humans.
When people have spiritual experiences they typically then have a renaissance in the compassion department.

What is curious is that this gland can calcify (basically, turn to stone)
and this results in apathy.
In scriptural terms a born again experience (to use christian metaphors) is having your heart (an inner portion/spirit) of stone becoming a heart of flesh.
So it seems that there is a very obvious parallel here.
So don't write off the mystery of that little gland so quickly.

 

[taijasi]

yes, it's a bid sad

strangely, if we can't cut something open and FIND a soul, then today's materialistic science just refuses to accept that there may BE one

so, let's cut you open, c0de ... anything there worth saving? anything there worth redeeming? no? just a few bits of flesh? well then.

you see, as shawn suggests, we need to look at BEHAVIOR(s)

we will never learn about other worlds, so long as all we want are easy, cut'n'dried examples ... and when we IGNORE what is right in front of us (the pineal gland IS the organ Descartes claimed it was, whether you or modern science can accept that or not) then alas, why SHOULD we expect to find the answers?

You can lead a horse to water ...

Dude, my sister has been clairvoyant all her life. Tell HER she doesn't have a pineal gland that does anything ... or a brow chakra that relays information to her brain about people in the world beyond. She'd probably just roll her eyes at you too, and laugh.

I find it a bit amusing that - as others have pointed out - these things really are "hidden" yet hidden in plain sight. I mean, sometimes, either ya get it ... or you ain't gonna. If you don't leave any room for what's in between, I guess you put yourself in this second category by default.

N'est pas?

 

[c0de]

.

Shawn + Taijasi



@ Shawn

And when it comes to this kind of anomaly I don't believe in random coincidence.

I didn't say anything about "random" coincidence. It can not be proven if it was random or structured. But it also can not be proven that one was the cause of the other, just because one event followed another.

Appearances are deceiving. Our minds are made to make sense of the world around us for functional purposes only, and this is why we interpret events the way we do. But the world does not actually work the way it appears to us.

So the human function of caring or compassion seems localized somehow in this little gland.

But that also means there is nothing "spiritual" about this gland. The "somehow" is just a consequence of its biological functioning.




@ Taijasi

Dude, my sister has been clairvoyant all her life. Tell HER she doesn't have a pineal gland that does anything ... or a brow chakra that relays information to her brain about people in the world beyond. She'd probably just roll her eyes at you too, and laugh.

But dude, what makes your sister so sure the source of her clairevoyance is the pineal gland? Is she also a neurobiologist?

strangely, if we can't cut something open and FIND a soul, then today's materialistic science just refuses to accept that there may BE one

Have you considered the possibility that maybe your definitions of "soul" are at fault here? Aristotle and Plato for example, did not even consider the "soul" to be anything separate from our material bodies, they just considered it the "essence" of our personality.

Even the theological concept of the soul, is different then the "spiritual" dualistic notions of it:

"And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7).

There is nothing in this verse to suggest that the soul is a separate entity. It can simply be synonymous with consciousness, which is a result of the interactions of the neurons in your brain.

so, let's cut you open, c0de ... anything there worth saving? anything there worth redeeming? no? just a few bits of flesh? well then.

Yep, just flesh and bone that we should all donate to the living upon death.

... we are not gods dude...

ashes to ashes... dust to dust...

 

[shawn]

Here is a paranormal story for you.
It happened to me.
About 10 yrs ago I was living in Northern Alberta and cutting poplar trees in January to clear some land, it was about 25C below.
They were about 50 to 80 feet tall and about 10 inches to 16 inches across at the base (or bigger).
In any case I had cut one and it got tangled in with another (a leaner).
These can be challenging and dangerous to deal with.
I proceeded to cut it and it slid between several others bowing a lot due to the angles.
One last cut to get it free, but this just snapped when I was half way through and came my way.
I had zero time to react.
So I get hit right on the forehead with this monster baseball bat with enough force to pick me and my saw up and fling me over 10 feet in the air back into a brush pile.
I weigh over 200 pounds.
I was only wearing a toque for headgear.
I looked at the snow I was thrown over and there were no foot marks so I was thrown up pretty high as the snow was almost waist deep (so between 2 and 3 feet).
I got up, my saw was still running and in my grip, so I just got back to work not really thinking about what just happened as I was kind of pissed off at the tree.
But then it sank in that my head should have been crushed due to the force of the blow.
And as I thought about it I realized that I hadn't even felt the tree hit me, it was kind of like an invisible barrier sprang out of nowhere and prevented the blow from landing.
Since I had to gas the saw up I went back to the house and went inside to ask my wife if there was any visible mark on my head.
There was none.
No scratch, no bruise, nothing.
I can't explain it.
I sure can't claim that I had anything to do with it (unless it is a deep subconscious protective mechanism).
But I sure am happy with the outcome.

I am not exaggerating at all.
This actually happened just as I have written it.

 

[c0de]

reminds me of the "superhuman" strength that some people get in extreme situations (baby under car etc.) Same kinda deal.

 

[taijasi]

But dude, what makes your sister so sure the source of her clairevoyance is the pineal gland? Is she also a neurobiologist?

I doubt she has ever even heard of the pineal gland.

What made the Vedic sages so certain? What makes the clairvoyants who can SEE the doggone thing (and witness its activity) so certain? What makes those who have direct, personal experience of it so certain?

The answer is obvious. Anyone with a direct, Straight awareness of their own pineal gland can confirm what I have said ... what Descartes has said. How on Earth do you suppose HE knew?

Remember that part about the horse ...

Thirsty yet?

Have you considered the possibility that maybe your definitions of "soul" are at fault here?

No, because they work for ME. They come to me based upon my own experience thus far, and they fit within the context of the definitions of Soul provided by the Teachings of the Ageless Wisdom. As such, they date back to the times of Plato, who was an Initiate, and before.

I assure you, Plato held no misconceptions regarding the true Nature of the Soul ... or certainly nothing like the idea of the Soul as a purely material entity. Aristotle may have seen things a bit more in this fashion, but not Plato.

"And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7).​

Indeed. But what this is saying is that it was the COMBINATION of the material element, the "dust of the ground," with the Spiritual element, the "breath of life," which TOGETHER brought forth this "living soul." However, if you want to be technical, there is nothing about this passage which contradicts the idea of the Soul as pre-existing, which is CERTAINLY what the Platonists and Neo-Platonists believed and taught, as also the Initiated Hebrew scholars, the Greeks prior to Plato, the Buddhist and Vedic scholars, and so forth.

The argument that Buddhism doesn't accept the doctrine of a Soul is, of course, in vain. Exoteric Buddhism has deviated from the original - certainly the esoteric - doctrines of Shakyamuni Buddha. To suggest that the latter did not believe in and teach regarding the Soul, is like saying that Einstein never taught physics and higher mathematics.

Epiphenomenalism, while perhaps acceptable as a hypothesis in the philosophy of mind, is a curse and yet one more holdout for the materialists ... when it comes to the Ageless Wisdom. I recommend a good discussion with the philosophy department at the local U. if you are interested in it. Certainly shawn is not an epiphenomenalist, as far as I can tell ... but perhaps there ARE folks here who believe in a purely materialistic explanation for consciousness (and hence, Spirit, God, the Soul, etc.).

But I think the best venue for such discussion would be the Philosophy board, where an investigation of Paranormal POSSIBILITIES may more appropriately limit its scope to the world of the five KNOWN senses.

On this thread, and given the thread title which you yourself have chosen, I think you should find it not the least bit surprising that plenty of folks - even the majority - will tend to accept the Soul, Consciousness, Spirit, God(s), and what-have-you as ALL, very likely, evidence and/or examples of NON-physical reality.

we are not gods dude

No dude, we are not. We are gods-in-the-becoming ... but some of us just don't know it yet.

I hear a fat lady caterwauling somewhere; I have to go run find out what it's all about.

cheers,
~A

 

[Snoopy]

The argument that Buddhism doesn't accept the doctrine of a Soul is, of course, in vain. Exoteric Buddhism has deviated from the original - certainly the esoteric - doctrines of Shakyamuni Buddha. To suggest that the latter did not believe in and teach regarding the Soul, is like saying that Einstein never taught physics and higher mathematics.

Any teaching which rejects anatta is not Buddhist, almost by definition.

What Buddhists Believe - Is there an Eternal Soul?

http://www.amazon.com/What-Makes-You-Not-Buddhist/dp/1590305701/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

s.

 

[Snoopy]

Philosophically for me a lot of the world's woes can be placed at the doorstep of dualism so Descartes was never going to be on my Christmas card list.

"Later in correspondence with Princess Elisabeth of Bohemia, he admitted he had no idea how the mind interacted with the body, abandoning the concept of the pineal glands as connection."


...oh maybe he wised up then...

"he believed that only humans have minds. This led him to the belief that animals cannot feel pain, and Descartes' practice of vivisection (the dissection of live animals) became widely used throughout Europe until the Enlightenment."

...or maybe not...

René Descartes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



s.

 

[taijasi]

Any teaching which rejects anatta is not Buddhist, almost by definition.

Not exoteric Buddhism, of course. In the same way, Christians today think Jesus taught x, y and z ... while this was certainly never the case. As for x, y and z, those are discussion topics for another thread.

Buddha's esoteric doctrines, being shared only with the Arhats by very definition, remain unknown to the masses. You might try reading the 3rd Volume of The Secret Doctrine if you would like to learn more.

If not, I recommend getting back to the discussion on the Paranormal.

And - if you wish - you might inquire of Descartes DIRECT to see what his final/current say is on the matter of the pineal. I believe you would find that he and I are in agreement.

 

[taijasi]

But I will make it simpler for you, Snoopy, and if you wish to discuss it further, then please start a separate thread and direct my attention there.

The Soul, in short, can be viewed as the PRINCIPLE of Consciousness called BUDDHI. Thus, almost by definition, Buddhism is in fact the spiritual philosophy par excellence which teaches us about the SOUL.

A more precise definition would be that the Soul is the Spiritual Triad, consisting of Atma-Buddhi-Manas. Yet during meditation, is it not the `Buddha-Nature' which Buddhists say they are seeking to cultivate? And I suppose that `nature' floats by itself, in space, adhering to nothing? Except of course, your `Great Void?'

Indeed.

Surely you will recognize the term `Bodhichitta,' from the conjoining of BUDDHI (or Bodhi) with CHITTA (or Chit) ... thus, `Bodhi-mind' or Bodhi + mindstuff. Chit, of course, referring to the triune manifestation of Consciousness: SAT - CHIT - ANANDA, wherein Ananda corresponds to the Buddhic Principle, Chit to the Manasic mindstuff ... and SAT to the highest aspect, the Atman, Dharma, Truth Itself.

But then, if you wish to confine yourself to EXOTERIC Buddhism, which bears about as much relationship to the original doctrines of Shakyamuni as today's Christianity does to the sublime doctrines of Christed Jesus ... then fine. You will get no argument from me.

Just don't talk to me about esoteric Buddhism, which Blavatsky originally suggested should have been spelled Budhism, with ONE `d' - due to its connection with Bodhi or Buddhi (the relatively permanent, enduring PRINCIPLE of Consciousness latent within the human heart, the Christ within).

And if you haven't studied the Ageless Wisdom, wherein the REASONS for holding such a viewpoint as mine are well explained and justified ... then I think what we have to say on this matter to each other is finished. For I, you see, am well familiar with the teachings of exoteric Buddhism, its arguments and the reasons for such ... and I have already decided, for myself, that this is not my path any more than that of exoteric Christianity.

 

[c0de]

.

I'm confused... I thought you said your sister was the one who believed her pineal gland is responsible for her clairvoyance?

Tell HER she doesn't have a pineal gland that does anything ... or a brow chakra that relays information to her brain about people in the world beyond. She'd probably just roll her eyes at you too, and laugh.

I think I see your point though. You are basically speaking from personal experience.

Like Snoop I am not a big fan of Descartes, nor do I agree that we are "gods in the becoming." The "soul is pre-existing" idea is totally at odds with me, but there is no point in having an argument on it. If that is what you believe, that is what you believe.

However this esoteric vs exoteric Buddhist stuff sounds interesting.

 

[Snoopy]

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However this esoteric vs exoteric Buddhist stuff sounds interesting.

If you say so.

Not sure I'd characterise it as "vs"; just another way to slice up the same cake. They're terms I don't come across much and are little concerned with. Wiki should sate your interest, or Vaj perhaps?

s.

 

[c0de]

Wiki should sate your interest, or Vaj perhaps?

i came up with something about Shingon Buddhism and "Arhat" somethin... but then i lost interest.... maybe i have ADHD... hmm, maybe, the govt. will give me free & legal amphetamines!! WIN baby!

 

[Radical_Reformer]

"he believed that only humans have minds. This led him to the belief that animals cannot feel pain, and Descartes' practice of vivisection (the dissection of live animals) became widely used throughout Europe until the Enlightenment."

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Anyone want to debate the merits and demerits of Descartes ? He developed the ideas of cartesian geometry.

 

[c0de]

Anyone want to debate the merits and demerits of Descartes ?

**holds demonic fingers back**

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*deep breath*

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... I am in rehab ! don't tempt me !

 

[taijasi]

Tell HER she doesn't have a pineal gland that does anything

So, I didn't quite say she knew what such an organ is or does, since I meant it more figuratively. You know, proverbially. Something like that.

As for the Buddhist stuff, it's probably quite unhelpful if it just gives people another battle line, a piece of chalk for these lines in the sand.

I do believe in esoteric vs. exoteric dimensions of every religion, every belief system. This can be an interesting consideration, say, when it comes to Wicca, Asatru, New Age beliefs in general, or even something so specific as Nyingma Buddhism or Mormonism.

The fact of the matter is, what is exoteric for some, isn't necessarily so exoteric for another, and while one person feels quite comfortable with his particular set of beliefs (worldview, overall framework, gestalt on things, what-have-you) ... another could well find such territory extremely unfamiliar, even to the point of feeling somewhat alien. The latter is alright, actually, even though it tends to be upsetting for some of us, but when the strange and unusual merges into the truly alienating - which is something else entirely - then it becomes necessary for additional bridges to built in between. And that can be time consuming, though it is often quite worth the additional effort.

I know, that's a bit abstract.

I would be interested in looking at the different dimensions of Buddhism, though I am only somewhat familiar with several of its branches, and I don't claim to have too many personal insights into any of them. What I have come to understand I do feel that I understand fairly well, yet "a little learning is a dangerous thing" ... and these days, well, ok, I do my own share of drinking - but not from the purest of sources.

Just what is Pierian, anyway?

Har ... ah, well ... I'd say Descartes was also a Great Soul, like the Buddha, if not quite a Mahatma after the fashion of Mohandas K. Gandhi, or the Theosophical Masters. I like these other topics, too.

But wasn't this thread about the Paranormal? I may have helped to derail it, but I'd rather either help to get it back on track, or else offer the suggestion that other topics get discussed on other threads - which we could start fairly easily.

Besides, I will probably burn one here in a little, and that means the wild, telepathic, quasi-paranormal experiences may indeed be forthcoming. Hence, more fuel for the ... Fires.

Agnichaitans, Agnisuryans, Agnishvattas and so forth.
Lords Caitanya, Surya, Isvara ... hmmmm.

See? And heck, I haven't even started yet!