how to prove the prophethood of one

[kenshin]

suppose we meet one claiming to be a prophet, how can we check the validity of this claim?
there are some answers mentioned in theology and they could be categorized like this :
1 - another prophet who we already know introduce the one.
2 - by gathering different evidences like the biography and the characteristic etc.
3 - Miracle !
it is obvious, as I see, the best way is the third and the first method depends on the 2 and 3 at the end.

OK! the question is "How to do this for one who has passed away?"
if we can't see their miracle, how then we want to check their claims?

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

suppose we meet one claiming to be a prophet, how can we check the validity of this claim?
there are some answers mentioned in theology and they could be categorized like this :
1 - another prophet who we already know introduce the one.
2 - by gathering different evidences like the biography and the characteristic etc.
3 - Miracle !
it is obvious, as I see, the best way is the third and the first method depends on the 2 and 3 at the end.

OK! the question is "How to do this for one who has passed away?"
if we can't see their miracle, how then we want to check their claims?

simple he is lying, we can all hear from the divine if we so desire.

 

[Lunitik]

If you feel he helps you, listen to him, if you feel he does not, don't.

What is a prophet? The Sufi's say a prophet is simply the highest spiritual peak, they garner this from Muhammad saying his Ummah will surpass the prophets of Israel. Really, the only distinction between true prophet and the false prophet is whether you accept them - there is no other distinction. You accept some because you accept their tradition, you reject others based on the words of those you accept.

It is a strange mess, why do we value these titles? Simply seek Truth from wheresoever it comes, soon you come to see that every person you come in contact with is a prophet in some way - everyone can teach you something important about life. Be a little more alert, and existence will use everything around you to guide you to Truth, but if you go on judging this and that you will never reach it. Simply move where your heart takes you and you will surely reach the divine, bring head in and it is impossible.

It is amazing that every scripture says God is beyond human comprehension, yet so many try to seek him through knowledge. It is utterly absurd, but God is love, the heart already knows the way you just have to trust it.

 

[kenshin]

thanks for the answer
All problem is this "I can't find the truth all by myself"
so if don't know the truth, I can't trust those who I don't know have a real understanding of the truth. but how I can distinguish between a claimer and a real observer of the truth?
prophets were those who truly knew everything about the truth seeing it with their hearts. so we need to find them then to find details of the truth.

 

[kenshin]

simple he is lying, we can all hear from the divine if we so desire.

sorry but I really don't know how to hear to the divine. please tell me if you have any instruction. (for real, out of kidding)

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

sorry but I really don't know how to hear to the divine. please tell me if you have any instruction. (for real, out of kidding)

draw close to God and he will draw closer to you.

seriously if you devote yourself to the divine, the divine responds.

 

[Lunitik]

thanks for the answer
All problem is this "I can't find the truth all by myself"
so if don't know the truth, I can't trust those who I don't know have a real understanding of the truth. but how I can distinguish between a claimer and a real observer of the truth?
prophets were those who truly knew everything about the truth seeing it with their hearts. so we need to find them then to find details of the truth.

Go towards those that are speaking of oneness and try their methods totally, utterly devoted to it and see if your state changes. If you begin to feel a transformation, continue, otherwise do not waste time, move to someone else who has different techniques and devices and go into those.

Eventually, things will just start clicking. You have to trust yourself though, that is the first thing. This belief that you can't trust yourself is holding you back, you already know the truth you just forgot it. Religion is really the art of remembering your true self, but if you can't trust that then what can you trust? Just don't bring mind so much in, it will not understand, it will be a lot of intuition and as you get closer your body will begin tingling, existence lets you know when you have hit something important. Just trust your heart, your head is making things complicated, but it is the simplest thing in the world. It is just to find out who you really are... what can be more basic?

Just remember, do not simply collect information, then you will feel you know when you really do not. Words are NEVER truth, only experience is truth. The devices of those who truly know attempt to lead you to an experience, words are simply to trick your mind into allowing it. Many fall into this trap, at best it leads them to wasting their time, at worst, well, you've seen about all these suicide cults. They have simply misunderstood what it means "you must die to reach to heaven", it is what you think you are now, only that concept which is references as "I" has to be dropped. Then, pure, you discover what you really were all along. Never harm your body through the search, you will need it to explorer and share the truth you find.

 

[Lunitik]

The direction you go doesn't really matter, but for me at first I found Hazrat Inayat Khan very helpful in clearing the path. From there, certain curiosities arose which led me to further truths and methods that helped. What matters is where you end up, that you are transformed into truth yourself, if this isn't emphasized it is probably because the person doesn't know themselves.

Today I find Osho most helpful, but he is not for the judgmental mind, he is only good for those truly seeking freedom. If you accept constraints, or even crave them, you will find him offensive. He was controversial for other reason as well, but few have been so precise in truth and yet so understandable. He is simply beautiful for so many reasons, but it is easy to discount him with mind. If you are already quite liberal, it will be quite easy for you to accept what he says, I might also suggest this as a consideration.

 

[arthra]

suppose we meet one claiming to be a prophet, how can we check the validity of this claim?
there are some answers mentioned in theology and they could be categorized like this :
1 - another prophet who we already know introduce the one.
2 - by gathering different evidences like the biography and the characteristic etc.
3 - Miracle !
it is obvious, as I see, the best way is the third and the first method depends on the 2 and 3 at the end.

OK! the question is "How to do this for one who has passed away?"
if we can't see their miracle, how then we want to check their claims?

I think part of the search is to prepare yourself.. to be open and willing to search, there are multiple levels of course..social, intellectual and spiritual to weigh and consider. Maybe someting like a "vision quest" involving fasting and prayer in the seeking.

Investigate their life/biography .. see it in the cultural context.

I would add also the effect of the One you are investiagting..that can be say verified by history and the reports of supporters as well as detractors.

Consider all the ramifications...spiritual, intellectual and social.

Prophecies can be considered but this may depend also on your spiritual condition to consider..

Miracles are today probably the least reliable as they are hearsay... and not reliable..however if you experience the "miracle" that's enough for you.

 

[kenshin]

thanks for replying
what is the criterion of the truth ? just my feeling ? of course not!
so I just can't go for those I like them. experience is good but it's not that all experience are safe!
there are some roads you can't return from

 

[kenshin]

thanks arthra
you know what muslims claim about the Quran. they believe it's a miracle! a live miracle not the one you should fine through the lines of a history book.
if their claim is right, then we might be able to check the prophecy of their prophet
all point was this

 

[Dream]

thanks arthra
you know what muslims claim about the Quran. they believe it's a miracle! a live miracle not the one you should fine through the lines of a history book.
if their claim is right, then we might be able to check the prophecy of their prophet
all point was this

It would be rude to interfere in their business like that. Not everyone sees evidence the same way, so evidence doesn't give a dependable result. It is hard, but you have to cut people some slack. They believe it --> therefore it may be true despite your own experience and wishes.

I really don't know how to hear to the divine. please tell me if you have any instruction.

Live for a long time, because the longer you live the more likely you are to hear it.

prophets were those who truly knew everything about the truth seeing it with their hearts. so we need to find them then to find details of the truth.

We hope so, but ten dollars can purchase twelve prophets. Since they can get away with lying without God striking them dead, you should not rely upon prophets much.

I think part of the search is to prepare yourself.. to be open and willing to search, there are multiple levels of course..social, intellectual and spiritual to weigh and consider. Maybe someting like a "vision quest" involving fasting and prayer in the seeking.

I did try fasting for a week once, but I didn't know what I was doing. I gave in after about four days. I think I just wanted to find out if it would make me feel more spiritual.

 

[radarmark]

Kenshin. Run from anyone who announces he or she is G!d, or a Prophet, or a Master. How do you decide what to accept or what not to accept? Look up scientific method, it works. It is never the proof of validity or truth, rather is is the possibility of falsification or error. Find a group of like minded. Here, perhaps. Have you tried a Unity ot Unitarian Universalist or a non-programmed Religious Society of Friends meeting? Or open Buddhist or Taoist or Vedanta? Or a non-fundamental Muslim or Bahai or Sikh meeting? You just keep plodding on and building up your collection of experiences.

 

[kenshin]

Kenshin.... Have you tried a Unity ot Unitarian Universalist or a non-programmed Religious Society of Friends meeting? Or open Buddhist or Taoist or Vedanta? Or a non-fundamental Muslim or Bahai or Sikh meeting? You just keep plodding on and building up your collection of experiences.

thanks for both suggestion and replying.
maybe I'm a bit younger to do so all of my friends believe like me. at least they don't kill me if they hit me ) actually it was about happening this evening. one of my friends was up to punch me ) ( it's natural in our field of study I suppose)

I think if we believe in God and his guiding, it's very natural to believe that he has sent some prophets. and may we can prove it necessary as there are some reasons to do so. like
"God has a goal in creating us. we can't fulfill our goal of perfection without a guide which can contact with us. God himself contact us in the heart and it's just for those who are pure not all. so for majority of us, there should be a visible guider."

 

[kenshin]

thanks for your answer.

It would be rude to interfere in their business like that. Not everyone sees evidence the same way, so evidence doesn't give a dependable result. It is hard, but you have to cut people some slack. They believe it --> therefore it may be true despite your own experience and wishes.

I didn't get what you really wanted to say.
if it is up to our wishes, then it is not a miracle for sure. miracle is something that connect you to the God in way you believe that this claimer is nothing but a prophet.
they say when you are near to your last breathes you can find another reality inside of you. the same would happen when you meet a real miracle.
they believe that all of the Quran together is a miracle. so it should have the same effect.

Live for a long time, because the longer you live the more likely you are to hear it..

you mean I should go astray before getting old enough to hear ?

I did try fasting for a week once, but I didn't know what I was doing. I gave in after about four days. I think I just wanted to find out if it would make me feel more spiritual.

I did try to do the same but not for a week. and not just fasting but other deeds and beside doing some acts, did my best to keep away from some other elements.
it worked after near 40 days. I could feel another entity within my heart. something which I could feel its great and vast reality when I talk to.

 

[radarmark]

Kenshin. Not so sure. There are many traditions that warn of following someone or believing anyone who (self proclaims) they are a Master.

 

[Dream]

if it is up to our wishes, then it is not a miracle for sure. miracle is something that connect you to the God in way you believe that this claimer is nothing but a prophet.

I believe that you have misunderstood the object and the subject, and also you were talking about Muslims in the third person. If you believe in Muhammad, then why should I judge your belief? It would be rude of me, and ridiculous. People don't listen. I already have my own things that I believe, and these come from my experiences and my wishes. You say he's a prophet, so to you he is. You are a person, and you have all of the rights mentioned in the UN charter of human rights. Article 1 "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

you mean I should go astray before getting old enough to hear ?

You asked how to hear the divine. I said be patient, not 'Go astray'.

I did try to do the same but not for a week. and not just fasting but other deeds and beside doing some acts, did my best to keep away from some other elements.
it worked after near 40 days. I could feel another entity within my heart. something which I could feel its great and vast reality when I talk to.

You are very smart, and I enjoyed your response. I wish that I knew another language but I do not.

When I fasted, I went without any food except for water. I began to feel a great hunger growing inside of me.

 

[kenshin]

I believe that you have misunderstood the object and the subject, and also you were talking about Muslims in the third person. If you believe in Muhammad, then why should I judge your belief?.

thanks for the answer
It doesn't matter what I believe. my beliefs don't change the reality and facts. I believe in religion as a collection of factual statements. whether I'm a muslim or not, I should have a good reason to believe in Islam.
what other people allow me to do and consider as my right just has a social effect. yes, I can practice Islam and no one force me to change it and we call it my right as a human.
but there is another aspect for this matter and that's the aspect of the truth. even if other people don't care about what I believe, it's a part of reality that I believe in something which may turn to be false.
so I insist to find the truth. I don't talk about rights but facts.

 

[NiceCupOfTea]

thanks for the answer
It doesn't matter what I believe. my beliefs don't change the reality and facts. I believe in religion as a collection of factual statements. whether I'm a muslim or not, I should have a good reason to believe in Islam.

i believe in Islam, i believe it exists.

what other people allow me to do and consider as my right just has a social effect. yes, I can practice Islam and no one force me to change it and we call it my right as a human.

your lucky, however if you ever wanted to leave islam some people might want to kill you as most scholars agree the punishment for apostasy is death.

but there is another aspect for this matter and that's the aspect of the truth. even if other people don't care about what I believe, it's a part of reality that I believe in something which may turn to be false.
so I insist to find the truth. I don't talk about rights but facts.

 

[Dream]

thanks for the answer
It doesn't matter what I believe. my beliefs don't change the reality and facts. I believe in religion as a collection of factual statements. whether I'm a muslim or not, I should have a good reason to believe in Islam.
what other people allow me to do and consider as my right just has a social effect. yes, I can practice Islam and no one force me to change it and we call it my right as a human.
but there is another aspect for this matter and that's the aspect of the truth. even if other people don't care about what I believe, it's a part of reality that I believe in something which may turn to be false.
so I insist to find the truth. I don't talk about rights but facts.

People are easily fooled. You are one of us. You cannot tell me that you aren't.