Christianity: Europe vs USA

[Namaste Jesus]

It has been suggested on a number of threads that Christian beliefs in the USA differ from those in Europe. I was not aware of this. So I ask, how do they differ?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

As I think religion intermingles with culture I think it's very natural for a religion to 'feel' different in different parts of the world. Sort of what you and I talked about yesterday about the 'western mind'. And the US is culturally different from Europe.

I think the distinction between the religious practices have been put forward in this forum by the interactions between Thomas and Wil. I think this is problematic since they see religion and faith fundamentally different so whether or not there is a notable difference between continents there will almost certainly appear to be one as these to comment only on each other experiences. Our US ambassador for Christianity, Wil, often feel he needs to take the position holds religion up to criticism and from the other corner we have Thomas who needs to defend Tradition and bring the perspective back. In our minds it can easily feel like one place encompass some aspects while the next encompass some other.

While I personally believe there are genuine differences, and am looking forward to an exchange, I think the above is worth considering.

 

[Thomas]

Well it depends on what beliefs.

My contention has always been that Wil's presentations to me of American Christianity is something of an ad hominem.

 

[wil]

Here are some of the differences described... it isn't that all have these beliefs on this side of the pond...but it appears a larger and more vocal number.

Most of these stem from literal interpretations.

1. Actual existence of a garden of eden, Adam and Eve, made from earth and rib.

2. Short Earth...using the genealogy calculating an earth and universe less than 10,000 years old.

3. Dinosaurs and man walked the earth the same time (and/or dinosaur fossils were put here by G!d to test mans faith and these beasts never existed)

4. A belief that Evolution is a theory therefor a guess, and not proven (and that theory includes that man descended from apes)

5. Many of the above beliefs cause these literalist/fundamentalist/creationists/evangelicals to distrust science in general.

6. Homosexuality is an abomination.

7. Women are subservient to men.

Forget all the arguments our bible thumping political leaders used to fight to keep slavery, fight civil rights, inter-racial marriages, and now gay marriages.... Lets just look at what they've said recently about women and rape... These aren't closet crazies...these are folks that have been elected to office and are involved in passing laws that run our country...

“I struggled with myself for a long time, but I came to realize life is that gift from God, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape. It is something that God intended to happen.”
—2012 Indiana Senate candidate Richard Mourdock (October 2012)

a presidential candidate...

“I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created—in the sense of rape—but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you. ...Rape victims should make the best of a bad situation.”
—Former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum (January 2012)

“If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. But let’s assume that maybe that didn’t work or something: I think there should be some punishment, but the punishment ought to be of the rapist, and not attacking the child.”
—Former Missouri Rep. Todd Akin (August 2012)

“If an individual has sex with their wife while she is unconscious...a prosecutor could then charge that spouse with rape, theoretically. That makes sense in a first-date scenario, but to me, not where people have a history of years of sexual activity.”
—Utah State Rep. Brian Greene (January 2015)

“Rape is kind of like the weather. If it’s inevitable, relax and enjoy it.”
—1990 Texas gubernatorial candidate Clayton Williams (March 1990)

 

[Thomas]

OK.

So can forum members tell me is this the voice of America?

 

[wil]

Here are some of the differences described... it isn't that all have these beliefs on this side of the pond...but it appears a larger and more vocal number.

To be clear Thomas.... it isn't that all have these beliefs on this side of the pond...but it appears a larger and more vocal number.

I indicated it is not all....but from my discussions with you and others....more here..than there (which previously I was not aware...)

but maybe this will help...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx

a popular place in our bible belt...Opened in 2007, over 250,000 visitors a year, its donations and income have allowed it to continually build on and expand....the Creation Museum....science at its best.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/things-i-learned-at-the-creation-museum#.neJzXq9ex

more on dinosaurs for those unaware...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/this-is-what-creationists-believe-about-dinosaurs#.fswmGzpb2

 

[wil]

OK.

So can forum members tell me is this the voice of America?

Thomas, do you believe that G!d created humans in their present form? No evolution? 42% of Americans polled do... (consistently polled at over 40% for the past 3 decades) with lesser percentages believing that G!d had a hand in evolution...and a growing percentage believing G!d had no involvement, evolution only... (this number has doubled from 10 to almost 20% in the past 3 decades....my contention is that has occurred somewhat because of science and education, but bolstered by the ridiculous nature and anti science fist pounding of creationists driving people away from church in embarrassment) Note we are not talking about the 1800's or far past....we are talking about beliefs 1980's to today... (ya gotta remember...6% of America believes the moon landing were faked in sound studios and the desert).

Do you think 42% of England or Europeans believe that man was created by G!d in its present form?

Or that 30% of Europeans would be upset if creationism was not taught in schools?

 

[Thomas]

OK. In the face of no other voices, I can only assume that the picture you present is accurate.

We had a cafeteria discussion once, when I was doing my degree, about Christianity in America. The consensus was that it was all rather immature.

I think this might possibly be due to a 'dumbing down' which seems to be an inevitable by-product of unrestrained consumerism.

It leaves the rest of us in the position of being obliged to acknowledge that anything coming out of America should be treated with a significant degree of skepticism, if not ignored altogether as irrational, illogical and sensation-seeking.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Give me a minute. I just got here!

My interpretation is that the philosophy of the two continents is very different, and some of that difference is due to cultural differences as Tea pointed out. It goes much deeper than that. It bears remembering that the New World was first inhabited by Europeans who were predominantly Puritan by religious nature. One of the more fundamentalist forms of Christianity. And despite all the years and all the changes the power structure is still controlled primarily by a Puritanical bunch.

So this question and subject is not a Wil vs. Thomas debate at all. Their differences are much more about, in my humble opinion, their personal views on religion. Not a representation of religious differences between separate sides of the Atlantic.

NJ, with that foundation as a start, my answer would be that when considering all Americans together, there is a whole lot more range of religious preference than it appears. The people themselves have a much wider set of religious preferences. But as already stated, the ones who have the power are some of the most Puritanical in the country.

Why is that? Now there is a question! There are a host of reasons. For one, people who are not fundamentalist have no need to force their opinions on everyone else, while those who are fundamentalist make it their mission to force their opinions on everyone else. To say it in another way, the former are passive about their religion, the latter activist about theirs. The active group most always sets the agenda.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Found this. I think it was originally published on [http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060810-evolution.html] but seems to have been taken down. An indication of something at least. Also, notice it isn't Europe vs US, but many different countries that are separate from each other. Just reminding everyone.

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Question: Can the US homeschooling effect things here?

 

[Devils' Advocate]

In the sense that those who home school are almost always conservative, I suppose it may have a small effect. I'm not sure home schooling is a wide enough phenomenon to make a significant difference. There are other forms of education though. There are thousands of private schools that are primarily religious driven in nature. At one time their mission was to teach a full curriculum and to keep God in the mix; that has been perverted today into teaching conservative religion as their primary focus and a general education secondary. That is much larger group which may be big enough to make a difference. I'm not sure though.

Did the sixth grade science test from a religious private school get posted on this site? I seem to remember it was. It was a horrific example of the harm religious schools are doing to our kids.

 

[wil]

home schooling is a mixed bag.... on one hand it has incredible potential and the top homeschoolers kick butts against the top public and private schools every year...but there is a problem with many as discussed.

 

[wil]

The pew polls tell the story....our politicians regularly respout their beliefs in public forums to the dismay and embarrassment of many of those that voted for them, the fact that our creation museum is profitable and growing, the fact that I camped almost every month with scouts for 7 years, and every sunday had to get up at 6 am so half our boys could run back to mass so they wouldn't go to hell... This is america...

underage drinking is a problem....because we are so puritan about it.... it seems the solution is better when kids can safely drink at home under the supervision of their parents without the State prying in...

teenage pregnancy is a problem...because the puritan influence says abstinence only, to hell with sex education and condoms.....

the female breast can't even be exposed for breastfeeding....leading to sexual tension and pornography making a killing....

Life in the greatest country in the world right?

 

[EdgyDolmen]

In 2002 I was in Chicago. I was invited to listen to Associate Justice Scalia, a devout Catholic, speak. One topic turned out to be his thoughts on the death penalty. I clipped the article from the Chicago Tribune and still, with utter astonishment, read it every few years. What follows is one very revealing quote. Don't forget. This is an Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court speaking. The obvious question would be: Why do I bring this up? Well read on - It has only gotten worse since 2002. Example: I just read an article that says States have run out of drugs to KILL their death row inmates. Many death rows are filled beyond capacity. Some States have chosen to return to using the electric chair while others are considering the firing squad. See if Scalia's remarks are not significant and notice how easily the U. S. could become a Theocracy. From a 2002 Tribune article -- Scalia:

"This is not the Old Testament but [it is] St. Paul...The core of his [St. Paul's] message is that government, however you want to limit the concept, derives its moral authority from God...Indeed, it seems to me that the more Christian a country is the less likely it is to regard the death penalty as immoral...I attribute that to the fact that, for the believing Christian, death is no big deal. Intentionally killing an innocent is a big deal: it is a grave sin, which causes one to lose his soul. But losing this life for the next?...For the non-believer, on the other hand, to deprive a man of his life is to end his existence. What a horrible act!

...what we have done (and continental Europe has not) by preserving in our public life many visible reminders that -- we are a religious people, whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being. All this, as I say, is most un-European and helps explain why our people are more inclined to understand, as St. Paul did, that government carries the sword as 'the minister of God' to 'execute wrath' upon the evildoer."

Anyone care to define radical?

Frightening? Shameful? Embarrassing? Yes it is!

Unfortunately the US is by no means alone in its failure of common sense. Loss of this fundamental necessity is a global epidemic. I need not offer a bibliography. Societies, individuals, institutions and governments around the globe offer proof every day! We all have some serious work to do.

There is enough ignominy for us all. Don't you think?

 

[A Cup Of Tea]

Unfortunately the US is by no means alone in its failure of common sense. Loss of this fundamental necessity is a global epidemic. I need not offer a bibliography. Societies, individuals, institutions and governments around the globe offer proof every day! We all have some serious work to do.

There is enough ignominy for us all. Don't you think?

As an European, yes. Lets all agree this isn't a measuring contest, no continent is better then the other. We are just comparing religious differences.

 

[Devils' Advocate]

"Only in America can you be Pro-Death Penalty, Pro-War, Pro-Unmanned Drone Bombs, Pro-Nuclear Weapons, Pro-Guns, Pro-Torture, Pro-Land Mines, and STILL call yourself 'Pro-Life'." ~ John Fugelsang

 

[wil]

Yup, had a family across the street..five kids...pro life/anti abortion stickers all over the car.... family of seven piles in a station wagon, three kids in the far back...no seat belts... after they moved we found out he was hooked up with some planned parenthood fire bombers....

One nation with hypocrisy we stand....

Unrestrained consumerism is the cause?? How does that work?

 

[Devils' Advocate]

Well how I think it works is that a person who thinks consumerism is the most important thing in their life is a shallow person indeed. Shallow people have shallow minds. Shallow minds are easily swayed by con-men such as politicians.

 

[Namaste Jesus]

As an European, yes. Lets all agree this isn't a measuring contest, no continent is better then the other. We are just comparing religious differences.

Amen! Less country bashing and more on topic discussion please. How Christianity differs between Europe and America....