Buddhas & Bodhisattvas

[Pathless]

A question arises when I think of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. While reading another thread, I came across the following post:

Imagine one hundred people drowning at see, not a pleasant experience. A buddha is the one who learns to swim and reaches the shore where he is much, much happier. A boddhisattva is the one who has figured out how to swim but chooses not to swim to the shore until he has helped everyone else learn to swim too.

We are not drowning at sea, we are drowning in Samsara, the Buddhas have escaped samsara, which is the ultimate goal of all buddhists, but the boddhisattvas are still here with us, living life after life to help us all to escape.

My question is, which of the two figures, a Buddha or a Bodhisattva, do people admire more? Whom do you strive to be like? If you go in for hierarchy, which is the 'higher' being?

My answer is Bodhisattva. I would actually venture to say that there can be no true Buddha until all beings have been liberated; therefore, anyone who reaches any insight towards enlightenment must necessarily continue to work joyfullyas a Bodhisattva in Samsara until the far-off time that all beings have been liberated from the bonds of uncontrolled passions: fear, lust, jealousy, pain, anger, all of that good stuff. Another saying comes to mind: There is no Nirvana without (or apart from) Samsara. Perhaps a Bodhisattva may walk in the heavy soup of Samsara, yet simultaneously inhabit the serene Elysian fields of Nirvana.

To me, a 'Buddha' who escapes worldliness for a paradise removed from suffering--as long as suffering, ignorance, and greed are arising somewhere--is simply deluding him or her -self.

Thoughts?

 

[taijasi]

Pathless,

The way you have presented this, I would definitely concur. The Bodhisattva Vow is noble indeed. But we should also consider that the path of the Arhat - even if pursued at our early stage for "self-ish"purposes - is also a good thing ... in our world, at this time. Most people are just selfish plain & simple, after all, and do not care if they hurt others in attaining the pleasures of the personality.

Esoterically, a Buddha cannot become a Buddha ... until s/he has first attained Bodhisattva-hood. The terms are looked at almost like military rankings, but certainly in terms of a hierarchy. Thus, we must consider that Shakyamuni Buddha (and Buddhas before him) passed through the Bodhisattva stage, long long before becoming Full Buddhas. In this sense, a Buddha is the natural completion of the Bodhisattva Vow.

I do not presume to know exactly how it works - and my viewpoint is an esoteric one (not that of most Buddhists, necessarily) ... but I have come to understand it thus:

A Buddha, by virtue of having climbed to the Highest Rung of the proverbial spiritual ladder (relative to a planet) ... has not only won the right to Planetary Nirvana ... but has sacrificed himself repeatedly for the sake of that planet's humanity, during his Bodhisattva stage. His spiritual standing is so utterly unlike any of the remaining beings upon his planet (excepting other Bodhisattvas and Chohans) ... that to remain any longer would ironically mean that he would be of less & less service to them. This will make sense if we consider that the Cosmos is a very big place, and there is a niche for this new Buddha, already carved out, as it were. Thus, the longer the Buddha remains with his given humanity, the longer his destiny must wait. What this amounts to, in simple terms, is extreme inefficiency. While his compassion is tremendous (beyond that, even, of a Bodhisattva), his Power is equally great - as is his sense & appreciation of his potential .... and therefore, he transcends even the Nirvana which he long ago won (even prior to the Bodhisattva stage) - and enters Maha-Para-Nirvana. This "stage of being beyond even Greater Nirvana" is a clumsy way, imho, of saying - "he enters the Way of Higher Evolution" ... which means Solar/Cosmic evolution, rather than planetary. [Generally, only esoteric works address this higher evolution, although hints are given in exoteric Buddhist texts.]
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Otherwise, if we disregard this consideration, then a Buddha really doesn't deserve that title, as you point out, for indeed, a selfish Buddha would be no Buddha at all! I think if we are earnestly pursuing the spiritual path for our own selfish gain, then at some point it ceases to become a spiritual path by very definition. Likewise, if we earnestly pursue a path of Truth, Wisdom, and Loving Service ... then eventually, everything we have known as our personality (or lesser ego) - evolves & transforms into our higher spiritual potentials, leading eventually & inevitably - to Bodhisattvahood, and Buddhahood.

Namaskar,

andrew

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


for the purposes of our conversation, Bodhisattvas and Buddhas are functionally equilivent. the main, but not only difference, is that a Buddha is able to completely expound the Dharma whilst a Bodhisattva is not.

metta,

~v

 

[Pathless]

Namaskar, Andrew. I really like the thoughts that you have presented, and they have helped me see the 'difference' between a Buddha and a Bodhisattva in a new light. From how you explain it, a soul that attains Buddha-hood does not dissolve into the cosmos in some kind of metaphysical orgiastic sigh of completion, but strikes out boldly to new and greater service in the cosmos--a very cool concept. Thanks for expressing it.

I do not presume to know exactly how it works - and my viewpoint is an esoteric one (not that of most Buddhists, necessarily) ... but I have come to understand it thus:

A Buddha, by virtue of having climbed to the Highest Rung of the proverbial spiritual ladder (relative to a planet) ... has not only won the right to Planetary Nirvana ... but has sacrificed himself repeatedly for the sake of that planet's humanity, during his Bodhisattva stage. His spiritual standing is so utterly unlike any of the remaining beings upon his planet (excepting other Bodhisattvas and Chohans) ... that to remain any longer would ironically mean that he would be of less & less service to them. This will make sense if we consider that the Cosmos is a very big place, and there is a niche for this new Buddha, already carved out, as it were. Thus, the longer the Buddha remains with his given humanity, the longer his destiny must wait. What this amounts to, in simple terms, is extreme inefficiency. While his compassion is tremendous (beyond that, even, of a Bodhisattva), his Power is equally great - as is his sense & appreciation of his potential .... and therefore, he transcends even the Nirvana which he long ago won (even prior to the Bodhisattva stage) - and enters Maha-Para-Nirvana. This "stage of being beyond even Greater Nirvana" is a clumsy way, imho, of saying - "he enters the Way of Higher Evolution" ... which means Solar/Cosmic evolution, rather than planetary. [Generally, only esoteric works address this higher evolution, although hints are given in exoteric Buddhist texts.]


​

...if we earnestly pursue a path of Truth, Wisdom, and Loving Service ... then eventually, everything we have known as our personality (or lesser ego) - evolves & transforms into our higher spiritual potentials, leading eventually & inevitably - to Bodhisattvahood, and Buddhahood.

Very nice and sensible indeed; it resonates well with me. Thanks again for your insight.

 

[taijasi]

Pathless,

Thanks. It's but my best guess at something that is well, well beyond me.

Oneness, or at-one-ment, has been described to me as something that each of us seems to experience from a firsthand point of view. (And many years ago, I recall it thus.) Nirvanic consciousness (a samadhi, however brief), is then the illusion that my own awareness - or true self - has expanded to include other people('s). From my point of view, I have only experienced expansion - but there is no lessening of the importance, and place, of other people and beings. Certainly, just the opposite!

It's this kind of expansion of consciousness, and brief taste of Nirvana, that has led many people to exclaim - and quite naturally, imho - I am God! There is nothing like blasphemy intended in the least, although in retrospect one will realize how dangerous such a statement is. In returning to normal, outward-turned ego-consciousness, or the individualized awareness of our lesser selves, we must be careful not to mistake the glory we have beheld for the false self, or mask (personality, from persona) - behind which each of us hides (witting or unwitting).

I believe that in speaking of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, we are considering beings who have long, long ago utterly transcended and forever abandoned the illusions of (individual) ego, and of separateness (not to mention separative-ness). Even long before such lofty attainments, the spritual path forces us to reconcile our ego with our Buddha nature ... although an arhat may have the chance (upon ego destruction) to enjoy a relatively long Nirvana - before s/he inevitably returns to the higher spiritual path which leads to Buddhahood and beyond.

But again, my belief may differ somewhat from conventional Buddhism, and at any rate, I don't expect to know for certain ... for quite a few lifetimes!

Namaskar,

andrew