Christ, My Bodhisattva

To be in Samsara indicates being unenlightened.
Nirvana expresses several levels of enlightenment.:)

This is why Christ is THE bodhisattva. He has already achieved nirvana.

Bodhisattvas are many, not just one.

Let's discuss more the idea of Nirvana expressing "several levels of enlightenment." I would agree with this definition or assessment of Nirvana. What I have been trying to communicate, albeit rather clumsily, is that Samsara is not and cannot be separate from this state of Nirvana.

As a Christian, would you say that creation is separate from God? Perhaps you would, in one sense. Yet would you deny that creation comes from God?

In a similar way, in the cosmology of Buddhism which I am advocating here, Nirvana can be seen as an all-inclusive state. Samsara is within Nirvana. Maybe it is simplistic or innacurate of me to say simply that Samsara is Nirvana, for Nirvana may be (is) much more than this "world of suffering." At the same time, Samsara cannot exist independently of Nirvana any more than, in the Christian cosmology, Creation can exist independent of God.

Does this make sense? Become more acceptable?

I suppose I do take it a step further, though. I believe that humans may experience Nirvana in Samsara. Usually this is fleeting and we do not become established in it. Yet it is possible. To my mind--and admittedly I may have a skewed interpretation of Buddhism (although I hope not too skewed, and who is to say anyway? ;) )--Buddhas and Bodhisattvas dwell in Nirvana while in Samsara. And why should this be contradictory?
 
Hey Pathless and wil--

OOPS! I got your postings mixed up, didn't I? :o Sorry...Anyway, Pathless, what I said to wil regarding what he didn't say....or something like that!

Interesting conversation, btw.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Does this make sense? Become more acceptable?

I suppose I do take it a step further, though. I believe that humans may experience Nirvana in Samsara. Usually this is fleeting and we do not become established in it. Yet it is possible. To my mind--and admittedly I may have a skewed interpretation of Buddhism (although I hope not too skewed, and who is to say anyway? ;) )--Buddhas and Bodhisattvas dwell in Nirvana while in Samsara. And why should this be contradictory?
Buddhism distinguishes three levels of consciousness: coarse, subtle, and extremely subtle.
Coarse-biochemical workings of the brain.
Subtle- subjective experience we ordinarily call consciousness. Among other things it allows the mind to examine itself, to ponder its own nature, and exercise freedom of choice.
The most important is:
Extremely subtle (also called “fundamental luminosity of the mind”)- this is a state of pure awareness that transcends the perception of a subject/object duality in the world and breaks free from the constraints and traps of rational thought. This third level is where nirvana is found and it can only be attained after extremely hard work. Tell the practicing Buddhists that I knew who have done the very detached work to achieve this state that they are in samsara, and they will laugh in your face.
 
Extremely subtle (also called “fundamental luminosity of the mind”)- this is a state of pure awareness that transcends the perception of a subject/object duality in the world and breaks free from the constraints and traps of rational thought. This third level is where nirvana is found and it can only be attained after extremely hard work. Tell the practicing Buddhists that I knew who have done the very detached work to achieve this state that they are in samsara, and they will laugh in your face.

Bwaaaahahahaha!!! :p :rolleyes:

I think that you may misunderstand what I am trying to say.

Those very hard practicing Buddhist friends of yours are still living, no? They did not bodily ascend to some place called Nirvana, or disappear in a blissfull puff of magic smoke while lotus petals fell, right? Whether they call it Samsara or Nirvana is somewhat beside the point. They are living in this "world of suffering," yet they have acheived some amount of transcendence through "extremely hard work."

If you have been thinking that I have been asserting that everyone unqualifyingly experiences Nirvana-in-Samsara, well then, I think we have just misunderstood each other. No. It does take work, or luck, or grace, or a bit of all three.

And maybe after all we are simply disagreeing on our use (or perhaps abuse, in my case) of Buddhist terms.

:)
P
 
Namaste all,

interesting discussion.

let me address the op first, though i realize it was posted for comment only and response to it is somewhat futile :)

it would seem that whomever wrote that ariticle doesn't understand either the Sanatana Dharma or Buddha Dharma concepts of karma and has, thus, come to some strange conclusions.. one of which is that another being can reap the Vipaka of another. this is not so though there isn't a real reason to get into a technicial disscussion of why this is not so at this point.

Nibbana/Nirvana.. this term seems to generate a fair amount of confusion about what it is and so forth. perhaps the easiest thing to do is see what the Buddha had to say about it to wit:

Just as the destination of a glowing fire struck with a [blacksmith's] iron hammer, gradually growing calm, isn't known:Even so, there's no destination to describe for those who are rightly released — having crossed over the flood of sensuality's bonds — for those who've attained unwavering ease.— Ud 8.10

further, there are two distinct sorts of Nibbana which the Buddha Shakyamuni discusses to wit:

Monks, there are these two forms of the nibbana property. Which two? The nibbana property with fuel remaining, and the nibbana property with no fuel remaining.

And what is the nibbana property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is a worthy one devoid of mental effluents, who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the bonds of becoming, and is released through right knowing. His five sense faculties still remain, and owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the pleasant & the unpleasant, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. That which is the passing away of passion, aversion, & delusion in him is termed the nibbana property with fuel remaining.

And what is the nibbana property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is a worthy one... released through right knowing. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished will grow cold right here. This is termed the nibbana property with no fuel remaining.
Iti 44


"growing cold right here" is explained in the following Sutta:

These twonibbana propertiesproclaimed by the one with vision the one independent the one who is Such:one property, here in this lifewith fuel remaining from the ending of craving, the guide to becomingand that with no fuel remainingafter this lifein which all becoming completely stops.Those who know this state uncompoundedtheir minds releasedthrough the ending of craving, the guide to becoming,they, attaining the Teaching's core, delighting in the ending of craving,have abandoned all becoming: they, the Such.— Iti 44



if one has an abiding interest in this discussion, i would highly recommend the essay "Mind Like Unbound Fire" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu which can be found here:
Mind Like Fire Unbound

Nibbana is also discussed in terms of what it is:

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."
— AN 3.32

and what it is not:

"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress."
Ud 8.1


*son is waking up, time for lunch!*

metta,

~v
 
Can you show me the shine of your Japan, the sparkle in your China?
Welcome to CR, Sunny C. :)

Namaste all,

interesting discussion.

Nibbana/Nirvana.. this term seems to generate a fair amount of confusion about what it is and so forth. perhaps the easiest thing to do is see what the Buddha had to say about it to wit:

Nibbana is also discussed in terms of what it is:

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."
— AN 3.32

and what it is not:

"There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support [mental object]. This, just this, is the end of stress."
Ud 8.1


*son is waking up, time for lunch!*

metta,

~v
Enjoy, Vaj. ;)
metta
 
Namaste all,

interesting discussion.

let me address the op first, though i realize it was posted for comment only and response to it is somewhat futile :)


~v

I love it when you do that Vaj... (setting the record straight from one who knows) :D

v/r

Joshua
 
Thanks for the welcomes!:)

I don't know much about Christianity proper, so you probably won't hear much from me on this board.

Sunny
 
Back
Top