Challenge: Produce a 4 word description of the cosmos?

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions' started by goodyman, Aug 8, 2007.

  1. goodyman

    goodyman New Member

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    Hi everyone.

    A Muslim friend has challenged me to produce a verse similar to the Koran. The challenge is that the verse must contain 4 words consisting of 19 letters, and it must make sense, and be truthful(reality). It is acceptable to write it in English. Come on everybody help me out?

    Do they say, "He made it all up?" Instead, they are
    simply disbelievers. Let them produce a Hadith like this,
    if they are truthful.
    [52:33-34]

    If they say, "He fabricated (the Quran)," tell them, "Then
    produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite
    whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

    [11:13]

    If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our
    servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon
    your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.

    [2:23]

    Say, "If all the humans and all the jinns banded together
    in order to produce a Quran like this, they could never
    produce anything like it, no matter how much assistance
    they lent one another."
    [17:88]

    Regards goodyman.
     
  2. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    LMMFAO! What's the point?? (four words... 19 letters enjoy. Doesn't get any more realistic than that.) ;) Hey try and describe a twinky! Can only use six words and has to be 17 letters... Doesn't the first thing that come to your head "why?"
     
  3. goodyman

    goodyman New Member

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    Yes, the first thing that came to my head was why? So, he explained it to me. Once you read the below we can proceed further, if you wish to do so? If you do decide to proceed further you will be amazed.

    ABJAD AND THE RISE AND DECLINE OF ALPHANUMERIC SYSTEMS

    Summarized from an essay by ;
    Frank Lewis

    Emory University

    The word abjad is an acronym derived from the first four consonantal shapes in the Arabic alphabet -- Alif, Bá, Jim, Dál. As such abjad designates the letters of the Arabic alphabet (also known as alifbá') in the phrase hurúf al-abjad. An adjective formed from this, abjadí, means a novice at something. Nowadays the Arabic alphabet does not follow the sequence a-b-j-d, but rather the order: A-B-T-Th-J-H.-Kh-D (the basic shapes of the letters A-B-J-D without their diacritical dots do, however, occur in that order, insofar as T and Th are distinguished from B only by dots, and the H. and Kh from the J only by dots). However, the order A-B-J-D is quite ancient, insofar as the word abjad is not of Arabic origin, but comes from earlier written alphabets, perhaps from Phoenician though the sequence may be as old as Ugaritic. In any case, it certainly predates the writing down of Arabic, as can be seen by comparison of Hebrew (Aleph, Beth, Gimel, Daleth) and Greek (Alpha Beta Gamma Delta).

    The Arabic alphabet and the corresponding numerical values known as abjad are therefore derived from earlier prototypes, as the following comparison shows:

    Hebrew: Aleph = 1 Beth = 2 gimel = 3 daleth = 4

    Greek : alpha = 1 beta = 2 gamma = 3 delta = 4

    Arabic: alif = 1 bá' = 2 jím = 3 dál = 4

    The so-called Arabic numerals that we use as ciphers to represent our numbers (1,2,3,4, etc.) were invented in India c. 600 A.D. They were first used in the Middle East by the mathematician al-Khwarazmi (c. 875), along with the zero. Though some Europeans were aware of these "Arabic" computational symbols as early as the 10th century, they did not come into general use until the 13th century in Europe. The point being that up until this time, written texts in Greek, Latin, Hebrew/Aramaic, Arabic/Persian, etc. used letters of the alphabet to represent numbers (the Latin equivalent is Roman numerals).

    The Arabic numerals proved far superior for computational purposes to the previous systems (it is not possible to do positional computation with roman numerals, nor did they come with the zero, another gift of India). The older letter/numbers gradually fell out of use, except in certain contexts (specifically the use of Roman numerals and Abjad numerals to mark the page numbers of the introduction of a book and the use of Roman numerals to record the publication date of books until the 19th century and the production date of motion pictures until the 1960s). However, just because the letters were no longer generally used as numbers, this does not mean that the numerical associations died out. Among poets the numbers were used to write chronograms (a word that contains a numerical value; poets frequently tried to find words with a numerical equivalent to the year of someone's death to write an elegy, for example). Theologians and mystics invested the letters and their associated numberical values with mystical significance.

    ABJAD SYSTEM AND HOW IT WORKS

    There are two principle variations in the Abjad system as to the value of certain letters; the Arabs of North Africa and Spain gave a different alpha-numeric order to some of the letters in the 100s than was common in the Levant and the Islamic east. However, this variation does not affect the values of letters under 100, which have always and everywhere been the same, so far as I know.

    The Abjad values and their mnemonic groupings are as follows. Short vowels have no value (except in the beginning of a word, where they are necessarily accompanied by alif/hamza). Note that hamza (') and `ayn (`) are different letters with different values, as are the letters followed by dots (which would be underdots in printed versions of texts rendered in accord with the romanization system used by Shoghi Effendi for Baha'i texts). For the details of why hamza and alif have the same value (i.e., á = ' = 1), see below:

    [​IMG]

    In the maghrib (Spain and North Africa), the following variant values obtained, to wit: s.= 60, d.= 90, s= 300, z.= 800, gh= 900, sh=1000.

    N.B.: Certain phonemes which require two letters to represent in the roman alphabet (e.g., Th, Kh, Dh, Gh, Sh) are each rendered by a unique letter in the Arabic alphabet.

    Likewise, doubled consonants (hurúf mushaddada) are counted only once. For example, though in transliteration we write Muhammad, in the Arabic script, the doubled consonant "mm" is represented by a diacritical mark (tashdid) over a single "m", which is therefore only written once and only counted once. Hence the numerical values of Muhammad and Nabíl are identical (remember not to count the short vowels, which are any vowels in transliteration which lack the accent mark):

    M + h. + mma + d

    40 8 40 4 = 92

    N + b + i/y + l

    50 2 10 30 = 92

    The word Rid.wán totals to 1057: R= 200, d.= 800, w= 6, á= 1, n= 50. Mustagháth equals M=40, s=60, t=400, gh=1000, á= 1, th= 500 for a total of 2001.

    The value of kull shay' should be 361 (k= 20, l = 30, doubled or mashdudd consonants are not counted twice, sh = 300, y = 10, hamza = 1). Persians sometimes elide the final hamza when writing this word in Persian (sometimes an extra "y" is also incorrectly added), which could lead to the wrong value of 360.
     
  4. Tao_Equus

    Tao_Equus Interfaith Forums

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    I agree, pointless and even if we did it they would just turn round and say "ahhhh but the arabic is so perfect and sublime and irrefutable" so you will be banging your head against the preverbial brick wall.

    And the preists declared 'how gullible the people" and how willing they are to pay with their wages and their lives for "faiths of self deceit".

    There are 2 for the price of 1.

    Tao
     
  5. farhan

    farhan New Member

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    This particular challenge was for the people of mecca (not for Americans or Chinese). Since they thought that nobody can produce a piece of literature in arabic like them, so Quran was the miracle for Arabs. "Bring a surah like it" for arabs is like Moses saying "You are the best of the sorcerers, so bring anything like what I am doing".

    Today , if a prophet comes, he would definitely say "you think you are the best of technologists, then bring a technology like mine". Because now a days language isnt considered the peak of human excellence.

    The challenge still stands though. One has to create a sentence (in arabic) that is neither prose, nor poetry, doesnot follow 16-18 different styles of arabic rhymic speech, & still makes sense. The problem is that if one breaks all the rules of language & creates some thing like this, its just broken sounds, if one tries to push some meaning into it , it always falls back to some of the pre existing literary styles.

    One has to understand that in those days it took people decades to gain experties in a few styles. Masters were spread all over arabia & it took weeks to move from city to city. Trying to invent a new rhythm of language would obviously take centuries.

    And obviously, the challenge is prety much unimaginable for a person who is not an expert in arabic poetry.
     
  6. farhan

    farhan New Member

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    And obviously........these were the words of a faithful :D
     
  7. 17th Angel

    17th Angel לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות

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    Obviously!
     
  8. goodyman

    goodyman New Member

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  9. dauer

    dauer New Member

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    Are you sure you're not your friend?
     
  10. goodyman

    goodyman New Member

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    POST 2 OF 2.

    FACT 16. Let us represent each one of the four words of the Basmalah by the sequence number of the letters in it. For example, the first word is represented by 123, since it has the first three letters of the Basmalah. The second word is represented by 4567 since it contains the letters 4, 5, 6, and 7. Similarly, the third word is represented by 8910111213, and the fourth word by 141516171819, since they contain the letters 8-13 and 14-19 respectively. If we add these four numbers representing the words of the Basmalah, the result is a 12-digit number which is a multiple of 19:

    123 + 4567 + 8910111213 + 141516171819= 150426287722 = 19 x 7917173038

    FACT 17. Consider the numbers that represented each word of the Basmalah in Fact 16. Instead of adding these numbers, we write each one down, followed by the sequence number of the word. For example, the first number, 123, which represents the first word, is followed by 1. The second number, 4567, which represents the second word, is followed by 2, and so on. The result is now a 33-digit number, also a multiple of 19:

    1 2 3 1 4 5 6 7 2 8 9 10 11 12 13 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 4 = 19 x 64813512047900 . . .

    FACT 18. This fact is based on three numbers only. We know that the verse consists of 4 words, 19 letters with a total gematrical value of 786. Now, let us put these numbers together. The result is a 6-digit number, a multiple of 19:

    4 19 786 = 19 x 22094. Even backwards this number is a multiple of 19. 687 91 4 = 19 x 36206

    FACT 19. The Basmalah is Verse 1 of the Quran. It consists of 19 Arabic letters. These 19 letters constitute the four words with the number of letters in each word being 3, 4, 6, and 6 respectively. Based on this information, let us write down 1 for the verse number, followed by 19 for the number of letters, and followed by 3, 4, 6, and 6 for the letters in each word of the Basmalah. The result is a 7-digit number as follows:

    1 19 3466 = 19 x 19 x 19 x 174

    As we see, this number is not only once, or twice, but three times a multiple of 19. Is it feasible for such an intricate, interwoven, and absolutely awesome mathematical system to be nothing more than coincidence?

    COINCIDENCE OR DIVINE DESIGN?
    It is very incredible for the four words and the 19 letters of the verse to result in so many numerical combinations based on the number 19. These combinations do not seem to be haphazard either. They are very consistent. For instance, let us look at the numbers in Facts 2 through 9. As you may have noticed, the numbers in these facts are in the same format:

    1 ? 2 ? 3 ? 4 ? = n

    The whole Koran is mathematically structured in this way. Add one letter into the Koran or take one out and the whole mathematical system brakes down.
     
  11. goodyman

    goodyman New Member

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    Greetings friend- There is no reason for me not to be honest. This forum does not discriminate against faith. All are welcome as long as they follow the rules.
     
  12. goodyman

    goodyman New Member

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    Greetings Farhan- This presentation has been verified by me, and its open for verifying. I would not present something that has not been thoroughly verified.
     
  13. dauer

    dauer New Member

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    goodyman,

    so your friend convinced you that islam's Truth and you want to share this Truth with everyone?
     
  14. goodyman

    goodyman New Member

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    Greetings dauer.

    Would you not expect the creator of the universe to produce a book thats mathematically calculated? You need to ask yourself a question? if one letter is taken out or inserted into the Al-Koran the whole mathematical structure would collapse. The Koran is testifying to its own authenticity. One does not need to learn arabic before verifying it for themselves. The rate its going I will submit to the creator of the Al-Koran.
     
  15. dauer

    dauer New Member

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    Goodyman,

    I reject supernaturalism, and tend to see all of our experiences and everything we know as at least partially painted by our subjectivity, so I don't really think, if there is such a thing as absolute truth, that it's possible to know that we know it. All systems of logic, all philosophies, maintain certain a priori assumptions without which they fall apart. And all personal experiences are exactly that: personal. Religions tend to try and justify their belief systems, but their justifications are only appealing to those who already believe and those looking for a reason to believe.
     
  16. Neemai

    Neemai that's my Boss in the pic

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    4 words for the Cosmos??

    Dark, Spacious, Amazing & Illusory

    I felt the 19 letter thing was a bit restrictive, sorry ;)


    ... Neemai
     
  17. goodyman

    goodyman New Member

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    Greetings Dauer.

    I respect your decision. Dauer, I did not already believe in the Al-Koran. The Koran is the only book on earth that has challenged me to produce a chapter similar. If I cannot create a similar verse, then I have to be honest with myself, and accept its a Divine book. The good thing about mathematics is that it's a language we all understand. I expect a book calling it self a word from God to have qualities which no human can compose. I think I've found that book.
     
  18. goodyman

    goodyman New Member

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    Greetings Neemai.

    Great attempt. Yes, it gets more and more restrictive when you have to mathematcally calculate each letter.

    Regards goodyman.
     
  19. dauer

    dauer New Member

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    goodyman,

    How do you understand other mathematical claims like bible code?
     
  20. goodyman

    goodyman New Member

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    Dauer- Which version of the bible would you be referring to?
     

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