23 month old daughter talks about heaven

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Andrew,

Who was the Lama?

DK

[Nick the Pilot]

Wow. Cool. You should start a thread on this. It sounds like something Theosophists would like to hear.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

DK

lmao...

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

lmao...

??

What'd I say?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

??

What'd I say?

nothing wrong Andrew, nothing wrong at all. Just the sailor in me...roflmao can't help it.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Nick the pilot

Wow. Cool. You should start a thread on this. It sounds like something Theosophists would like to hear.

Along these lines, I might add that I think many of the experiences we have as children either do not get shared at all, or perhaps get buried (or forgotten) until much later in life. In some cases, I do think our childhood upbringings, including religious experience and teachings, condition our later efforts to remember or interpret early events.

This is why it is especially wonderful to hear of children who are able to speak directly, about things happening recently, or in the present, regarding Heaven, spiritual beings, out of the body experiences, and so forth.

A good friend of mine from work, for instance, has spoken to me many dozens of times about her young son, maybe 5 or 6. For several years she has been attuned to his sharings, and she has treated everything he says with understanding, and a willingness to explore.

This is so unlike the skepticism, and the conditioning, which I think a lot of parents introduce to their children, even unintentionally or unconsciously, along various lines.

My friend in question is Christian, with a great interest in Gnosticism, and also an interest (and belief) in rebirth. She does not put it out of the realm of possibility that some of her son's experiences might include memories of, or impressions from, previous lives. And when her son speaks of `God,' which he has done on numerous occasions, with considerable detail and narrative, she tends to pay especially close attention and explore the experiences with him.

Having met her son several times, I am glad to say that attributing these experiences to an overactive imagination is probably not the way to swiftly and objectively approach this particular (or any similar) situation ... as if the alacrity with which we can flash forth our shining Occam's Razor was somehow a measure of our worth, or worse yet, mirth.

What can I say? As we look at the clouds, some people see a dog, others see a fish, sometimes there are angels dancing ... and I believe it all!

Namaskar ...

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

How does your friend reconcile the idea that Christians can only go to Heaven or Hell after death, yet she believes in reincarnation?

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Andrew,

How does your friend reconcile the idea that Christians can only go to Heaven or Hell after death, yet she believes in reincarnation?

I'm not sure I buy into the idea that to be a Christian, one must necessarily believe in (eternal) Heaven and (eternal) Hell, while rejecting Reincarnation. I don't believe that Rebirth is out of keeping with what Christ taught. In fact, I think that any Christianity which lacks this teaching, although perhaps more popular - and thus mainstream in today's society - is missing something of the original message.

In this, I am somewhat Gnostic in my approach, and Christian Esotericism appeals to me greatly. Annie Besant's `Esoteric Christianity' is right beside me here, and I think I've recommended it to my friend from work several times. Over the years, we've exchanged a great deal in terms of our spiritual interests, and I think we've both enjoyed seeing how our understandings have progressed and changed.

She still attends a church, both for her children's sake as well as for her own (benefit, interest, devotion & commitment, etc.) and her husband's ... while I never have, at least in my adult life. A few years ago, this friend of mine might not have felt, or believed, that Christianity has lost part of its original message - to the point of such a teaching as Reincarnation.

I think that now, she very much so believes this, but that doesn't stop her from believing in the Christian message of Love, and Brotherood. Sure, some of the dogma may be hard to reconcile ... but the kind of open, explorative conversations she has with her children, help to avoid the early crystallizing of these ideas.

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

You said,

"I'm not sure I buy into the idea that to be a Christian, one must necessarily believe in (eternal) Heaven and (eternal) Hell, while rejecting Reincarnation."

--> The funny thing is, I believe in Heaven, Hell, and reincarnation. (Notice that I left the word "eternal" out.) I see no conflict between the three concepts at all.

"I don't believe that Rebirth is out of keeping with what Christ taught."

--> I firmly believe Jesus taught reincarnation.

"My friend in question is Christian, with a great interest in Gnosticism, and also an interest (and belief) in rebirth."

--> Without being intrusive, and while being respectful, I would be curious to find out what your friend thinks is the cause of the end of a chain of reincarnations.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> The funny thing is, I believe in Heaven, Hell, and reincarnation. (Notice that I left the word "eternal" out.) I see no conflict between the three concepts at all.

--> Without being intrusive, and while being respectful, I would be curious to find out what your friend thinks is the cause of the end of a chain of reincarnations.

I believe in the hells of "purgatory," too, in terms of the astral plane ... what we must experience as a result of the vice and (especially the intentional, or knowing) shortcomings of our physical life.

Tibetan Buddhism has long taught us about the lower bardo, via the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and there are the lokas of Hinduism. Spiritualism, also, has afforded much insight into the nature and details of the life after death. I still smile when I see people say things like, "we can never know (or cannot and will not know) until we die," or "it remains a mystery." Not so, not so.

Heaven, too, in terms of the Theosophical Devachan, which is also a teaching from Hindusim, becomes everything that is taught in Christianity (minus the streets paved with gold) ... and the true timelessness of this state (mental plane consciousness, especially in the presence of the Soul) makes it seem `eternal.'

All of this, within the context of Nirvana, and I was most impressed that on the Christian thread on Christ, My Bodhisattva it was pointed out that samsara, even including all of the things that seem to keep us "out" of Nirvana, actually also resides within Nirvana ... or at least, cannot be thought of as "mutually exclusive" (which is really just a mind trick). The way it was expressed, actually, it is that Nirvana can be experienced even while amidst sangsara, and I think this is conveyed in the expression, `The miracle is to walk on earth!'

As for what my friend believes is the end cause of a chain of lives, I think she'd likely say that "we've learned what God has put us here to learn, and we're ready to move on to other lessons, elsewhere" ... or something similar. I will ask her though, next time I have a chance.

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew,

I will curious to hear what she says. I feel that, in the long run, the one thing that keeps us reincarnating is karma. I cannot see how it could anything else. Have you read George Arundale's book on his experiences on the "Nirvanic level"? (Arundale claimed to be able to achieve Nirvanic consciousness, yet also spend time in his physical body, here on the physical plane.) He (and many other visitors to Nirvana) have always said that, once we visit Nirvana, returning to this physical plane is a painful experience for us. To me, only one thing can explain why we continually return to the pain of the physical plane -- karma.

[wil]

We've discussed this before...I see no issues with reincarnation and christianity...and believe it fit the mold Jesus taught...some say it was in the bible and extricated, some say it was never in there...many still see it in the bible...

I think the cycle of rebirth ends with enlightenment...as our elder brother showed us...I don't feel it capable in one lifetime, yet one never knows how many lifetimes we've been working on it, nor how many Jesus had been.

I do think Karma is not the be all and end all, I believe Jesus taught grace and grace can trump Karma....but we are involved. The key is getting the material ego which is controlling out of the way and letting the spiritual ego which allows to get in...hard to get the controller to allow though and hard to get the allower to control...

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,

You said,

"I see no issues with reincarnation and christianity..."

--> This is the value of a comparative Religions Forum, in that we can see how various people approach a particular subject. I guess everyone has their interpretation of reincarnation and Christianity, and I am glad to see you have come to an understanding about the two concepts that works for you.

"...some say it was in the bible and extricated, some say it was never in there...many still see it in the bible..."

--> Yes, I have seen many threads and articles on the Internet on this subject.

"I think the cycle of rebirth ends with enlightenment..."

--> I would say the cycle of rebirth ends with Nirvana, not Enlightenment (I definitely see non-Nirvanic Enlightenment as a possibility, as do many Buddhists), so I guess it is just a matter of how we look at it. (I find the differences between Nirvana and Enlightenment to be a fascinating topic, so maybe someday we could start a thread on it.)

"I do think Karma is not the be all and end all...."

--> I agree. I see karma as mainly impacting the human level of existence. I do not see it as a factor for beings above and below the human level.

"I believe Jesus taught grace and grace can trump Karma...."

--> I suppose we can agree to disagree on this one.

"The key is getting the material ego which is controlling out of the way and letting the spiritual ego which allows to get in..."

--> I agree. But I am wondering if we are defining terms in the same way. Are you defining the Spiritual Ego as the Soul?

[greymare]

when my middle son was about 2 or 3 (he is 16 now) I remember playing with him in the back yard, He threw a tantrum (as he often did) I picked him up and told him he was going to his room , He said, "i wanna go live with my other mother". To this I responded, what other mother . The other mother up there he said and pointed up to the sky. That floored me. Being the total rational mother that I am I said, Dont be so stupid, go to bed.
Like I said, he is 16 now and nothing supernatural or unexplained has ever happened with us and it was totally innocent comment made by an small child but it definatly stopped me in my tracks.....

[Nick the Pilot]

Grey,

Many such cases have been documented. Has your son forgotten these memories? It is common for such children to start forgetting their previous incarnation at about age eight.