9/11 - An American Conspiracy?

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Anzac

Not to be a thorn in the side but I have a point to make about one of Vajradhara's points on the whole terrorist issue.

According to WordReference.com terrorism is:

terrorism ['tɛrəˌrızəm]
noun

1 systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal

2 the act of terrorizing

3 the state of being terrorized

Now in my eyes I feel the US fall into category number one of this. Recently in the middle east with both Iraq and possibly Syria and/or Iran there have been several threats about "regime change if no evidence of weapons of mass destruction are shown". Whether they have them or not is a totally different matter, but the US was willing to use force in Iraq (most recent example anyway) to get it's eventual goal. To me this is terrorism so I think it's the wrong word to use in this instance as terrorist is a rather generic term. Something like "Radical middle eastern extremist" covers it more in my eyes - but at present both are the guilty party as neither side can claim anything to be just or right.

On a side note with the Nero thing, you should collate a number of views on the subject and come to an informed opinion, not looking entirely from one angle. For instance I recently watched a documentary on US involvement in Vietnam where it claimed in 1973 a "mutual and decisive draw was achieved". To my mind this isn't the same images of the Saigon embassy. However, it wasn't a total whitewash for the North Vietnamese either and so you have to look at both biased opinions and come to a decision.

On the original post: I do agree with most of those and that it is hardly co-incidence and isn't really that much of a conspiracy. This is because the US government doesn't need to hide it because people jump to their own conclusions about it anyway regardless of situation. Admittedly there is some covering up, but in general most people are not interested in the subject and only in the light of new things do people take notice. When more light is shed on certain things in 10 or so years time they will probably surface more, as with the US involvement in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Most people don't mind - claiming it to be the right thing to do. People always use justification for different things and occasionally use the juxtaposed position for the same argument now and again. The next question to ask about the US and their lust for oil, wealth and world domination whether overt or covertly is who is going to stop it all?

Namaste Anzac,

indeed, terrorist is a broad brush and it would depend on one's view point about whom one would consider a terrorist, would it not?

however, it seemed that we had narrowed the discussion enough that a general term like terrorist was apt and not a term that would cause confusion.

i have spent many, many years in my study of history and feel that the point of view that i have vis a vie Rome is fairly objective and comprehensive from multiple sources. the fact of the matter is, nobody knows who started the fire. Nero said it was Christians. Nero's enemies said it was him. what we know is that most of Rome was burned to the ground.

as for Vietnam, there was one stated objective, and it was met, defeat of the NVA. of course, once this happened the gurrellia war started and the situation changed. the political will to remain was eroded and the political leaders pulled the military out... well, mostly out.... acutally they just moved to a few new countries to continue their anti communist activities.

as a citizen of America, i am ashamed by many of the actions we've taken in our relatively young history. however, no nation has it's hands clean and many of them have engaged in longer, most devestating wars and conquests than America. history is a wonderful means for us to recognize patterns in the present. we see, demonstrably through the lens of history, that empires rise and fall. it would be a mistake to think that America was any different than the rest.

[Susma Rio Sep]

America, i am ashamed by many of the actions we've taken in our relatively young history. however, no nation has it's hands clean and many of them have engaged in longer, most devestating wars and conquests than America. history is a wonderful means for us to recognize patterns in the present. we see, demonstrably through the lens of history, that empires rise and fall. it would be a mistake to think that America was any different than the rest.

Vaj, spoken like a true disciple of Buddha.

By the way, are you Vaj originally Christian in at least your native cultural ambience, and then converted to Buddhism?

How often and how many hours do you spend a day on meditation? and what do you meditate about or on, and for what purpose?

Up to the present I still can't find the new thread button in this website; so if you can do me a favor, will you start a new thread on Buddhist meditation: the what, the how, the for what?

I like to exchange views with you about Buddhism and meditation and prayer to Buddha and his saints.

Susma Rio Sep

[Anzac]

In the respect of Rome (which by the sounds of thing you are a much bigger authority on the subject, so I shall not try to impose myself) I was just trying to compare the views on Vietnam to those of Rome. At the time one view will be or have been held, and now, a different one is held. It's the transition period between about which nation is in power and who controls the past and future (as Mr. Orwell put it: who controls the past controls the future, who controls the present, controls the past). I was using it as a modern day representation of an old concept.

I am also incredibly pleased that someone retains a neutral view on the subject as well. For instance there are those that always look to find the faults and cracks and those that tend to build up their views on things. I am not someone to remain neutral and often put my foot in things but I have a great respect where you are neutral regardless of happenstance. If I were wearing a hat, I would bow it to you in this respect.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Vaj, spoken like a true disciple of Buddha.

By the way, are you Vaj originally Christian in at least your native cultural ambience, and then converted to Buddhism?

How often and how many hours do you spend a day on meditation? and what do you meditate about or on, and for what purpose?

Up to the present I still can't find the new thread button in this website; so if you can do me a favor, will you start a new thread on Buddhist meditation: the what, the how, the for what?

I like to exchange views with you about Buddhism and meditation and prayer to Buddha and his saints.

Susma Rio Sep

Namaste Susma,

thank you for the post.

well... i suppose that i was.. though my Christian friends maintain that i wasn't

there is a thread in the Eastern Thought section on Meditation which you can find here: http://www.comparative-religion.com/...read.php?t=507

which you are already posting in

i usually perfer to keep a topic in one thread rather than hopping between several.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Anzac

In the respect of Rome (which by the sounds of thing you are a much bigger authority on the subject, so I shall not try to impose myself) I was just trying to compare the views on Vietnam to those of Rome. At the time one view will be or have been held, and now, a different one is held. It's the transition period between about which nation is in power and who controls the past and future (as Mr. Orwell put it: who controls the past controls the future, who controls the present, controls the past). I was using it as a modern day representation of an old concept.

I am also incredibly pleased that someone retains a neutral view on the subject as well. For instance there are those that always look to find the faults and cracks and those that tend to build up their views on things. I am not someone to remain neutral and often put my foot in things but I have a great respect where you are neutral regardless of happenstance. If I were wearing a hat, I would bow it to you in this respect.

Namaste Anzac,

thank you for the post.

you are correct... the views and opinions on things change over time, sometimes that is a detriment to society for they repeat the same mistake over and over.

by the by... i thought that Rage Against the Machine said that

there was a time, perhaps not so long ago, when i wasn't able to be neutral in things of this nature. i am not the same person as i was then, for which i'm very thankful. when you are a child, you understand as a child.. when you become an adult, you should endeavor to understand as an adult.

hopefully, i understand things in a more adult fashion now.

as is said... "The genunie path of unminding is not for the immature."

[Anzac]

Rage against the machine did use them in their song "Testify" but Orwell said them first in relation to the changing scope of history and the whole "forget but don't forgive" trend.

I do really appreciate someone who is impartial on these things as they tend to be able to look at them in an unclouded light.

Back on thread (American conspiracy) it's hardly a conspiracy in my eyes as such after looking at the whole thing. Like I said before, the American regime doesn't actually cover itself up that much, it just leaves so much untouched that you have to plough through thousands of pieces of information to get to what they mean. The Americans never denied Iraq being involved in September 11th, but they never said they did it either (however, they did admit recently the two things were unrelated, only on a side article at the end of some document at the end of one of Mr. Bush's speeches - it seems to have yet again avoided the limelight). The US government has always sought to put it's foot well and truly in everyone elses business because it can and this is yet another example - and they always have to come out on top. This is where you see the "coincidence" of September 11th and Afghanistan and Iraq targeted by the US. You notice how quickly they were able to implement such large scale plans of invasion. Also look at the Patriotism act - there are 1000s of clauses that are changed and made different yet it was in place less than two weeks after the attacks. It has taken me around two months to read them all let alone understand them all.

However, take this as you will - but after all, the one superpower can continue to go untouched as long as no other superpower arises - and they're doing their best to make it remain that way.

[mikie8]

"However, take this as you will - but after all, the one superpower can continue to go untouched as long as no other superpower arises - and they're doing their best to make it remain that way." well said anzac

the war in vietnam had nothing to do with defeating the vc but to stop russia increasing its influence over the east .The cold war was because an out right war would be too costly and so a way to devide and concour was put in place .

[Fern]

Originally Posted by mikie8

"However, take this as you will - but after all, the one superpower can continue to go untouched as long as no other superpower arises - and they're doing their best to make it remain that way." well said anzac

the war in vietnam had nothing to do with defeating the vc but to stop russia increasing its influence over the east .The cold war was because an out right war would be too costly and so a way to devide and concour was put in place .

I am American & believe that 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'. Because of this, I pray that the European countries ban together and as the EU are able to become - or be a formidable stabilizing force to the US.

Excessive power usually turns into excessive force, as shown by our sinful invading of Iraq.

Know that not all Americans believe in 'my country right or wrong', but unfortunately, today the media increasing portray us as such. There are some very level headed people here - it just seems that in the political venue they get drowned out by the noise of those who are looking for soundbites. Sad...

[emong]

You are absolutely correct, Fern.

I know of not one person that is a mirror of how the media portrays us.
The media has become too powerful in swaying public opinion by the simple suggestion of what we should think. Some time I really think that George Orwell was a true prophet and this is "Animal Farm".

[Friend]

Comments About 11 September

1- The attacks of 9/11 COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED without the willful failure of the American defense system. In Washington, Air Force pilots demanded to fly but were ordered to stand down.

2- WHY then attack Iraq? especially since we now know the reasons were all bogus and now it seems USA is more keen to establish FREEDOM in Iraq than find those nasty Al Queda operatives.. it just doesn't add up.

3- Much like the invasion of Iraq, the anthrax attacks were designed to deflect attention from unanswered 9/11 questions in the patriotic pandemonium that followed the tragedy.

4- Statements by Zbigniew Brzezinski and the Republican-written Project for a New American Century have stressed that America needed a formidable enemy to accomplish its aggressive geopolitical aims. The supposed enemy we attacked in Afghanistan was a diverse group of men from all over the world who were initially recruited, encouraged and supported by the American CIA.

5- The president has admitted that he continued to read a story to schoolchildren in a Florida school for 30 minutes after being informed that two planes had struck New York and that the nation was under attack. He has never explained this puzzling behavior, nor how he saw the first plane hit.

6- The invasion of Afghanistan was presented as an attempt to pursue the alleged perpetrators of 9/11, yet it had been discussed for years prior to the tragedy and actually planned in the months before the attacks on New York and Washington.

7- Planes that lose contact with control towers are usually intercepted by fighter jets inside of ten minutes, as the incident with the golfer's plane a few months earlier so clearly demonstrated.

8- Yet on 9/11, the jetliners that struck New York were allowed to proceed unmolested for more than a half-hour, and the plane that supposedly crashed in Washington was not intercepted for more than an hour and forty minutes after it was widely known that four planes had been hijacked.

9- The twin towers could not have collapsed as a result of burning jet fuel. Most of that fuel was consumed on impact. In the south tower, most of the fuel was spilled outside the building. Heat caused by burning jet fuel does not reach temperatures needed to melt steel.

10- What does stand out as particularly suspicious and still unexplained is that fires raged out of control beneath THREE of the collapsed towers for ONE HUNDRED DAYS, clearly indicating the presence of some kind of substance utilized in the demolition of the structures.

11- The Twin Towers did not fall because of plane impacts or fires. Most likely explosives were placed on structural supports in the towers (as was done in Oklahoma City), and these controlled implosions snuffed out the lives of three thousand people.

12- Numerous previous attempts at using planes as weapons, intimate knowledge of terror plans called Project Bojinka, and knowledge of suspicious characters attending flight schools who were being monitored by the FBI make his utterance a clear lie on its face.

13- In the weeks before 9/11, the U.S. received warnings from all over the world that an event just like this was about to happen, but FBI investigations into suspected terrorists were suppressed and those warnings were deliberately disregarded.

14- The names of the alleged hijackers, all ostensibly Muslims, were released to the public only hours after the attacks, despite Mueller saying we had no knowledge this would happen. This is an impossible twist of logic. If he didn't know of a plan to strike buildings with planes, how would he know the names of the hijackers?

15- Various artifacts were discovered in strategic places to try to confirm the government's story, but these have all been dismissed as suspicious planting of evidence. Since that time several names on that list have turned up alive and well, living in Arab countries. Yet no attempt has ever been made to update the list. And why were none of these names on the airlines' passenger lists?

16- Cellphone calls cannot be made from airliners in flight that are not close to the ground. As research by Professor A. K. Dewdney has shown, the emotional conversations between hijacked passengers and others would not have been possible under conditions that existed at that moment. These calls were cynical fabrications, exploiting the distraught emotions of those who lost loved ones.

17- Radio communications from firefighters on the upper floors of the Trade Center towers clearly indicate that fires were under control and the structure was in no danger of collapsing.

18- Bush's own brother was chief of security at World Trade Centre !!!!.

19- Anyone with any knowledge of the different types of FIRE knows that BLACK smoke indicates a fuel fire. You see WHITE smoke when something that will leave an ASH (such as paper or wood) burns. There was a lot of BLACK SMOKE coming off the towers before they collapsed.

20- In addition to making large amounts of money for the president's father and his friends from the hasty sale of inefficient drugs to a panicked populace, the investigation into these killings was abruptly halted when the trail of evidence led straight to the government's door, and has not been reopened.

21- The Patriot Act was presented in the days after the tragedy supposedly as a response to it, yet it was clear that this heinous act, drafted to nullify provisions for freedom in the U.S. Constitution, was put together long before 9/11. In addition, testimony by Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) revealed that most members of Congress were compelled to vote for the bill without even reading it.

22- Hundreds of pictures taken by many people show that a 757 could not have hit the Pentagon."

23- No airplane debris (except what was planted on the lawn) nor remains of passengers were ever found.

24- It was never televised, only recorded by a French crew filming firemen in New York. In that film, the plane in question does not appear to be a passenger airliner.

25- The hole in the Pentagon was not made by a jumbo jet. Damage to the building was simply not consistent with the size of the hole nor the absence of debris. At the supposed point of impact, a whole bank of windows remained unbroken and there were no marks on the lawn.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Questions still need answers

26- Who benefited from the suspiciously high numbers of put options purchased prior to September 11 for shares in companies whose stock prices subsequently plummeted, on the supposition that whoever was behind the hijacking was also behind most of the purchases of these put options?

27- Why was the debris from the collapsed Twin Towers removed from the site with no forensic examination? Why was almost all of it sold to scrap merchants and shipped abroad where it would not be available for scientific examination?

28- Why does the government refuse to release any transcripts of communications or any records at all relating to signals of any form transmitted by those jets?

29- Why did so many people, from San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown to many employees of companies in the World Trade Center who failed to come to work that day, know in advance that something bad was going to happen on Sept. 11, 2001?

30- Why do all the major U.S. media continue to act as if none of these questions is legitimate or relevant?