A Corollary of Christian God - Page 2

Quahom1 · 11-03-2006, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

Are you sidestepping?
Because you're not exactly answering my point.

It is quite possible for a flawless unit to become flawed. It is impossible for a flawed unit to become flawless (on it's own). Does that answer your question?

v/r

Joshua

Dondi · 11-03-2006, 11:04 PM

Man was created in a state of innocence. He could commune with God because of that. Remember there were two trees in the Garden. I believe the Tree of Life is indictive of the Spirit of God. Had Man chose to eat this tree, the trial would be over, the Spirit of God would have entered into Man and He would have lived forever in Perfection. Instead, he ate the other Tree and fell. Rather than risk Man in eating the Tree in his fallen state, and thus live forever in that state, God banished Man from the Tree of Life (God''s Spirit), UNTIL God could take care of the problem of Sin, through Christ. Only then can the Spirit of God indwell Man.

Does that make sense?

Quahom1 · 11-04-2006, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

Are you sidestepping?
Because you're not exactly answering my point.

How is this...when a man even begins to turn towards God, all of heaven goes silent, and every angel holds their "breath". That is how important a single man is to God Almighty. That is how important you are to God.

v/r

Joshua

cavalier · 11-04-2006, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

It is quite possible for a flawless unit to become flawed.

Ok, we've been here before though. As I have written before, this would mean that God could become flawed

Quahom1 · 11-04-2006, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

Ok, we've been here before though. As I have written before, this would mean that God could become flawed

the only "flawed" being is us...that is pretty much self evident by today's standards.

v/r

Joshua

cavalier · 11-04-2006, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

the only "flawed" being is us...that is pretty much self evident by today's standards.

v/r

Joshua

Ok then Q

mee · 11-04-2006, 04:16 PM

[quote=Dondi;77954]
Somehow, Sin must be paid for.

God, because He is Perfect, is the only One who can fix the problem of Sin in Man.
Therefore, God came in the form of a Man.

quote]or as the bible tells us , God sent his only-begotten son..........
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. John 3;16

(Romans 8:32) He who did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all, why will he not also with him kindly give us all other things?

(1 John 4:9) By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.

Quahom1 · 11-04-2006, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

Somehow, Sin must be paid for.

God, because He is Perfect, is the only One who can fix the problem of Sin in Man.
Therefore, God came in the form of a Man.

You said it buddy, not me (lol).

v/r

Joshua

Dondi · 11-04-2006, 05:18 PM

You must know, Q, that was a quote from the OP. I don't think mee exactly agrees with it though.

Dondi · 11-04-2006, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

Ok, we've been here before though. As I have written before, this would mean that God could become flawed

Hmm...I guess I didn't make my premise plain. The whole point I was trying to make in saying that Man was made innocent, is that in order to maintain that state of innocence, Man would have had to have eaten the Tree of Life (i.e. God's Spirit). The point is that no one can maintain that state of innocence until that which is Perfect (God's Spirit) is infused in him, for lack of a better term. In the state of innocence, that is the state of potential choice between good and evil, Man's fall would have eventually happened because the Spirit of God was not in him at that point.

That is why I said that if Man had eaten the Tree of Life, Man would have lived forever in Perfection for the Spirit would be in him. Instead, Man relied on his own spirit to try to resist temptation.

Man, on his own is prone to failure, without the Spirit of God. But God in His perfection, is not, for Holiness is His very nature. That is the difference.

Man could become flawed, due to freewill, but God in His Holy Nature, which means He is Holy in His Free Will, is Perfect.

Therefore I think it is faulty thinking believing that God is subject to the kind of fall Man was subjected to. The whole point of the matter of the Two Trees is God wanted to know if Man would submit his will to God's will. And that continues today.

mee · 11-04-2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You said it buddy, not me (lol).

v/r

Joshua

i think you will find that i quoted dondi

cavalier · 11-05-2006, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dondi

Hmm...I guess I didn't make my premise plain. The whole point I was trying to make in saying that Man was made innocent, is that in order to maintain that state of innocence, Man would have had to have eaten the Tree of Life (i.e. God's Spirit). The point is that no one can maintain that state of innocence until that which is Perfect (God's Spirit) is infused in him, for lack of a better term. In the state of innocence, that is the state of potential choice between good and evil, Man's fall would have eventually happened because the Spirit of God was not in him at that point.

That is why I said that if Man had eaten the Tree of Life, Man would have lived forever in Perfection for the Spirit would be in him. Instead, Man relied on his own spirit to try to resist temptation.

Man, on his own is prone to failure, without the Spirit of God. But God in His perfection, is not, for Holiness is His very nature. That is the difference.

Man could become flawed, due to freewill, but God in His Holy Nature, which means He is Holy in His Free Will, is Perfect.

Therefore I think it is faulty thinking believing that God is subject to the kind of fall Man was subjected to. The whole point of the matter of the Two Trees is God wanted to know if Man would submit his will to God's will. And that continues today.

I really appreciate you taking the time to set out your views like this.

Here you say man was created innocent, I have no problem with this. Innocent is, in itself, different to perfect.
You originally wrote that man was created perfect, but then fell. That is only possible if part of man's perfection was the possibility (and given what you have said here, I would say inevitability) of his fall.
This raises certain moral questions about God.

mee · 11-06-2006, 09:15 AM

Importance of Correct Viewpoint. For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called "perfect" is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God.
Other perfection relative. Perfection of any other person or thing, then, is relative, not absolute.

That is, a thing is "perfect" according to, or in relation to, the purpose or end for which it is appointed by its designer or producer, or the use to which it is to be put by its receiver or user. The very meaning of perfection requires that there be someone who decides when "completion" has been reached, what the standards of excellence are, what requirements are to be satisfied, and what details are essential. Ultimately, God the Creator is the final Arbiter of perfection, the Standard-Setter, in accord with his own righteous purposes and interests.
As an illustration, the planet Earth was one of God’s creations, and at the end of six creative ‘days’ of work toward it, God pronounced the results "very good." (Ge 1:31) It met his supreme standards of excellence, hence it was perfect. Yet he thereafter assigned man to "subdue it," evidently in the sense of cultivating the earth and making the whole planet, and not just Eden, a garden of God.—Ge 1:28; 2:8.

Dondi · 11-06-2006, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavalier

I really appreciate you taking the time to set out your views like this.

Here you say man was created innocent, I have no problem with this. Innocent is, in itself, different to perfect.
You originally wrote that man was created perfect, but then fell. That is only possible if part of man's perfection was the possibility (and given what you have said here, I would say inevitability) of his fall.
This raises certain moral questions about God.

The only moral question about God is why He would He create being with the capacity to do evil. Unless He was hoping that these beings would be capable of choosing good. Maybe that was the risk He took in creating free moral agents. It stands to reason that since He loved man, He was hopeful that Man could reciprocate that love. What is that saying? "If you love someone, set them free"?

I can relate. I've taught my children the best I know how. I am not perfect, but one thing I tried to teach them is the Love of God. So far, I've seen pretty good results in my kids. They are not perfect, either, but I've seen them both grow in the Lord.

But the real test is going to be the time when they are no longer under my care, when they have branched out on their own. I cannot keep them forever. For their own good, they have to learn to fly on their own. I can only hope and pray that what they have learned and what they have experienced in their youth will remain with them in their journey through life, and that I have given them enough of myself and more importanly, enough of God for them to sustain that. That they will rely on God for everything they do.

17th Angel · 11-06-2006, 12:43 PM

I see what cavalier is saying 100% and Mee... You're a JW right so you believe that once judgement day has come we all get raised and get that second chance to live on a paradise earth and everything will be purrr fect? Right? Right, so, aren't we back to where we were? Why won't people choose to do what Adam and Eve did? And "disobey" When these perfect sheep have a child.... What is to say that child wants anything to do with god? What if he resists all the bible studies you force down the throat of this child? What of your paradise then?