A Last Request

Ciel · 01-19-2006, 08:28 PM

I am arranging the funeral of my father.

The grave is a double grave to join my mother, and because my mother was a christian it is on church land. My father wished for a humanist burial of non-denomination, because he was not a man of the church. Though sensitive and aware of higher aspiration.

Now the Canon of the church has so far refused anything but a christian burial, and this is in opposition to my father's wishes as a humanist.

Therefore is it not wrong that the church should sanction rights over my father, knowing it is against his wishes in the finale of his time on earth?

wil · 01-19-2006, 08:51 PM

What a dilemna, my heart goes out to you in this time that you have to deal with such a thing.

I'm taking it his wishes were to be buried with your mother while he was not aware of the canon that is imposed.

I'm not familiar with English law or the exact church canon however it appears from your description it sounds like the church has specific requirements on their property...requirements that go with the purchase of the burial site.

Is it possible to create a service that would satisfy both? ie can you write it?

Would it be possible for someone else to speak as well as the churches representative.

or two services...

seems they should appreciate your mothers wishes for them to be together.

my prayers are with you that you find a divine solution to your needs, divine to you, your father and the church.

Dondi · 01-19-2006, 08:53 PM

From a non-legal perspective:

They ought to respect you father's wishes. But since it is on the church's land, and I am assuming that they are the one's conducting the service, they are really under no obligation to conduct that service except according to their beliefs. I would put this in the same catagory as a pastor's obligation not to marry a believer with a non-believer. The conviction is that everything the church does is Christ-centered.

However, I do not know what the legal implications would be in this case, so I would consult a lawyer.

Quahom1 · 01-19-2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciel

I am arranging the funeral of my father.

The grave is a double grave to join my mother, and because my mother was a christian it is on church land. My father wished for a humanist burial of non-denomination, because he was not a man of the church. Though sensitive and aware of higher aspiration.

Now the Canon of the church has so far refused anything but a christian burial, and this is in opposition to my father's wishes as a humanist.

Therefore is it not wrong that the church should sanction rights over my father, knowing it is against his wishes in the finale of his time on earth?

You could consider an alternative (highly unorthodox, yet it has been done before). Have your father's remains creamated, then simply sprinkle them over your mother's grave.

You may also petition the Archdiocese for consideration of your request.

You could also ask your mother to interceed and provide you with guidance (or ask God to).

As far as a tomb stone, this one gets creative...

You get a new one with your Mom's particulars and your Dad's name next to hers. But when they cut it, then you have a paste put over your Dad's particulars (blended into the stone). Then after sprinkling the ashes, just knock the paste off of the new stone...and voila! Mom and Dad together, and it's marked in stone.

my eh, thoughts.

v/r

Q

Ciel · 01-19-2006, 10:05 PM

Dondi,

Thank you for your response.

You see the Christ essence known to this life would have no problem with a humanitarian service and would be granted in compassion. The service is not even booked to be in the church, but by the graveside, with it's own humanitarian minister. Is not humanitarianism also included in church doctrine, or is that only for christians?

Quahom1 · 01-19-2006, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciel

Dondi,

Thank you for your response.

You see the Christ essence known to this life would have no problem with a humanitarian service and would be granted in compassion. The service is not even booked to be in the church, but by the graveside, with it's own humanitarian minister. Is not humanitarianism also included in church doctrine, or is that only for christians?

That is why I suggest you contact the Archdiocese and petition for a service as per your father's request. The Archdiocese can override the local priest...

Dondi · 01-19-2006, 10:26 PM

I'm with Q on this one.

Ciel · 01-19-2006, 10:36 PM

Wil,

I feel your heart in this, thank you.

The canon mentioned here is the upgraded title of the priest. And my he is a very uptight man! The same who performed the service for my mother. I tried before to help conduct the tone of the service with him, he is extremely old school, tends to feed off dark matter. It is only he who has the requirements of what can and cannot be, not the church it's self who's land he treads.

My mother and my father shall be buried together - in peace.

Quahom1 · 01-19-2006, 10:45 PM

There is a Biblical passage that can be used to buttress the request...

1 Corinthians 7: 13-14

And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

I submit your father's remains are sanctified through your mother's faith. That does not mean he has to have Christian prayers said over his grave. Just means he can be buried in hallowed ground through his wife's faith. If the church refuses, they risk tearing a family away from the church, and as such can ill afford that.

Speak softly while requesting. The secular law system is loathe to interfere with church matters, so you must appeal to the Archdiocese. That is my advice.

v/r

Q

Ciel · 01-19-2006, 10:48 PM

Hi Quahom,

Nope, dad said he'd been through the fire too many times, and he wasn't going back there again.........ashes out.

Wonder if there's time to petition archdiocese? Shall consult with mediators.

Dondi,

yes....

lunamoth · 01-19-2006, 10:54 PM

Hi Ciel,

My condolences to you and your family. It is sad that you have to be burdened with this kind of issue while facing the loss of your father. I hope you are able to find a way to honor your father's request.

peace,
lunamoth

Ciel · 01-19-2006, 10:58 PM

[QUOTE=Quahom1]There is a Biblical passage that can be used to buttress the request...

1 Corinthians 7: 13-14

[And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.]

Quahom,

You telling me to buttress the church with the church.

Quahom1 · 01-19-2006, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciel

Hi Quahom,

Nope, dad said he'd been through the fire too many times, and he wasn't going back there again.........ashes out.

Wonder if there's time to petition archdiocese? Shall consult with mediators.

Dondi,

yes....

Option two, If time is an issue, Cryo freeze -321*F in Nitrogen. Then vibrate the body which becomes dust (no burning, no ashes, cost $1000.00). Similar results to cremation, but no burning involved. Cheaper too, and clean. Again, your father's wishes are kept intact. And you have more options to work with to see to your father's final wish.

v/r

Q

Quahom1 · 01-19-2006, 11:17 PM

[QUOTE=Ciel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

There is a Biblical passage that can be used to buttress the request...

1 Corinthians 7: 13-14

[And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.]

Quahom,

You telling me to buttress the church with the church.

No, I point out that the church members sometimes forget their own bible...and what God said, instead of the dogma that clogs their drain pipes for ears...I suggested you remind them.

Ciel · 01-19-2006, 11:28 PM

Lunamoth,

Thank you.

My father was 86 and knew it was time, he is released from life now. And no longer walking his poor sad old body. I wonder might you understand I celebrate his liberation. In hospital they still tried to prolong his passing when I wished he could have been left to die peacefully in the arms where love cradled him, at home, that is the real sadness. This death, this life, I watched him in the labours of death as a woman labours bringing new life into the world, and a woman is not given hospital assistence to prolong birth in a natural process, why should death be prolonged when it is imminent?

He is now at peace.