A Little Unorthodox but...

[Paladin]

I just think this is pretty cool.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/ny...ournal.html?hp

The idea of Buddhism without the accompanying religiosity interests me. I guess that's why Stephen Batchelor always appealed to me.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I just think this is pretty cool.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/ny...ournal.html?hp

The idea of Buddhism without the accompanying religiosity interests me. I guess that's why Stephen Batchelor always appealed to me.

Good stuff, thanks for this.

Put me in mind of a punk rock bassist...

HARDCORE ZEN

s.

[Zenda71]

The book by Noah Levine (which is about his life) is quite inspiring. There are some mp3 teachings here... Dharma Punx - MP3 Talks

[saddha]

Different strokes for different folks! If non-Buddhists can take anything from Buddhism which helps them, good.


I never minded religiosity, as long as it was with the truth.

To take refuge is the most beautiful spiritual act of trust and faith in God -- and Buddhism has it.

Buddham Saranam Gacchami
I go to the Lord for refuge

Dhammam Saranam Gacchami
I go to the Lord's teachings for refuge

Sangham Saranam Gacchami
I go to the Lord's children for refuge

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I just think this is pretty cool.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/ny...ournal.html?hp

The idea of Buddhism without the accompanying religiosity interests me. I guess that's why Stephen Batchelor always appealed to me.

one of the great cultural transmissions in human history occurred when Zen came to the West.

one of the great feats of religious revival occurred when S. Suzuki came West and corrected the errors with the initial transmission of Zen when it was stripped and broken into bivalent structures. Suzuki frequently lamented this as it made his work significantly more difficult.

if some folks can't tolerate the idea of "religion" and latch onto the Buddhadharma as a way of being "spiritual" without religion then i would suggest that they revisit the Suttas and see how the Buddha Shakyamuni referred to his teachings and, what they will discover, is that he proclaimed his teachings to the consumation of the religious life, the way of doctrine and discipline.

but, like many things, its a gradient path and it is somewhat of a mistake to impose our own progress upon others.

metta,

~v

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by saddha

Different strokes for different folks! If non-Buddhists can take anything from Buddhism which helps them, good.


I never minded religiosity, as long as it was with the truth.

To take refuge is the most beautiful spiritual act of trust and faith in God -- and Buddhism has it.

Buddham Saranam Gacchami
I go to the Lord for refuge

Dhammam Saranam Gacchami
I go to the Lord's teachings for refuge

Sangham Saranam Gacchami
I go to the Lord's children for refuge

So much nicer if we did not require refuge in the first place.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So much nicer if we did not require refuge in the first place.

indeed. and for many beings such is the case. for many beings it is not. it seems that humanity, like the individual humans, is rather varied and may require myriad methods, ideas, views and non-views to help them along the path.

some beings, albeit rare, require nothing other than isolation to break free and reach the Other Shore.

i oft have the impression that certain beings get rather upset when, to cross to the Other Shore, a being may use a different raft to accomplish the task. of course one of the trickier bits is leaving the raft after we've finally built it and used it to cross the stream!

metta,

~v

[Paladin]

I would agree that discipline, cultivated in a wholesome way is helpful, though after many years of meditation and study I have seen "doctrine" to not always be helpful.
At this point in my understanding or more accurately the understanding that is happening, I wonder if we inadvertently create a false dilemma for the individual with religious ideas.
Specifically does one need a doctrine to cultivate humility, patience, and the ability to look deeply?
Perhaps many do and that is fine as far as it goes.
Growing up in rural Pennsylvania I remember wandering through pastures and forests, along streams and rivers and to my childs mind and heart I could be nothing but humbled by the wonder of it all, I spent hours sitting quietly, listening and watching life around me.
This happens even now when I go for walks or just sit looking out my window.
Back then I didn't have any religion or ideas of philosophy, I just was and experienced being as it is.

When I first heard Suzuki refer to "things as it is" I knew what he meant.

[saddha]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So much nicer if we did not require refuge in the first place.

All matter is subject to decay...

because of this universal Noble Truth of suffering, we require a refuge until we become whole again.

This raft/chariot/boat of the Noble Eightfold Path is there to help repair us.

[saddha]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Specifically does one need a doctrine to cultivate humility, patience, and the ability to look deeply?

Does one need a doctrine?
If it is well explained, yes.
If it gives greater clarity, yes.
If it gives firm understanding, yes.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by saddha

Does one need a doctrine?
If it is well explained, yes.
If it gives greater clarity, yes.
If it gives firm understanding, yes.

And if it doesn't?

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

one of the great cultural transmissions in human history occurred when Zen came to the West.

If only if Christianity would translate as good in Japanese..

IMO, noone has figured out a good way to translate Christianity into Japanese without sounding corky.. in many cases as far as I know 17th century Japanese is integrated you`d think cob webs were part of it. I think Christianity should be taught in English in Japan, that would help.

TK

[TheKhan]

Maybe a form of Zen, cultured by Christians would reach Japan.

TK

[earl]

Originally Posted by Paladin

I would agree that discipline, cultivated in a wholesome way is helpful, though after many years of meditation and study I have seen "doctrine" to not always be helpful.
At this point in my understanding or more accurately the understanding that is happening, I wonder if we inadvertently create a false dilemma for the individual with religious ideas.
Specifically does one need a doctrine to cultivate humility, patience, and the ability to look deeply?
Perhaps many do and that is fine as far as it goes.
Growing up in rural Pennsylvania I remember wandering through pastures and forests, along streams and rivers and to my childs mind and heart I could be nothing but humbled by the wonder of it all, I spent hours sitting quietly, listening and watching life around me.
This happens even now when I go for walks or just sit looking out my window.
Back then I didn't have any religion or ideas of philosophy, I just was and experienced being as it is.

When I first heard Suzuki refer to "things as it is" I knew what he meant.

Yes. young children have such open, inquisitive, and appreciative awareness. But to say that even young children simply go through their daily life "belief-" or "view-less" is, of course not true. Seems like not long after learning to speak they are either offering their own views on the nature of various things-sometimes in amazingly profound ways-or seeking out explanations from adults. Human nature is such that it seems very unlikely to be able to operate without some sort of guiding view albeit perhaps quite maleable and ever-evolving through life. earl

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by earl

Yes. young children have such open, inquisitive, and appreciative awareness. But to say that even young children simply go through their daily life "belief-" or "view-less" is, of course not true. Seems like not long after learning to speak they are either offering their own views on the nature of various things-sometimes in amazingly profound ways-or seeking out explanations from adults. Human nature is such that it seems very unlikely to be able to operate without some sort of guiding view albeit perhaps quite maleable and ever-evolving through life. earl

Actually I wasn't going for such an overarching idea when it comes to children. Note I didn't use all children as example, but you are quite right about their ability to formulate an outlook.
Perhaps I didn't emphazise enough that established religions serve a need, but I really believe they do.
Perhaps I'm drawing too fine a line between what is needed and what can be, but my point is that there exists among the followers of orthodox doctrines a tendency to hold on to the raft regardless of whether it is still taking us anywhere.