a POLITE discussion of the 5 fundamentals

[wil]

Sorry to derail...please return to the OP and if one wishes to discuss What if please find new thread here

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, wil!

Originally Posted by wil

This fact that fact. We must remember to discuss and examine these points from a persepective of increased awarenesses of others belief systems.

inhumility, your thoughts are from outside of Christianity, your suppositions are of your belief system as Ahmadi is an Islamic Sect not a Christian Denomination. I for one appreciate your response and can offer that you can state it as your belief system or your thoughts here...and as fact maybe over on the Islam board...

Dondi, in the same respect you offered up a request for a polite discussion and as we all interpret scripture differently your view and understanding may differ from others...

But inhumilities point causes me to beg the question...what if. What if these five fundamentals were at some point in time proved without a shadow of a doubt to each and every one of us not to be true.

I'm not saying or implying they are....but what if...what would that do...would it destroy the church as we know it, would it destroy our belief system...or would the church and our faith be strong enough to survive it?

From where I stand and my understanding, I see the church and much of the flock having issues.... but I don't see it collapsing...I see a new awakening of the essence of scripture and the underlying truths encased in the stories. I see many people today being able to stand up through any such event, unscathed in their faith...

You raise excellent points. This is probably a good portion of my vacillation on the subject...I want to believe as the orthodoxy maintains...yet I have these nagging doubts that reverberate what wil is alluding to here. I have tried praying them away, I have tried logically analyzing them away, I have tried everything I can think of to dismiss these doubts. Yet they persist.

I accept that at this stage in my faith walk there must be some lesson I need to learn, but I am really struggling with understanding quite what that lesson is.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Q!

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Indeed, the entire stature of Christianity and "Islam" would be looked upon as false. The world as we know it would shatter. And the Jews would be both envied and hated for what they have, and the rest of the world has not. No church or Mosque would stand for long. NT Scripture, Surah and the guidance or "laws" post Old testament, would mean nothing. Most would abandon the "false teachings" they've been given. Secularism would rise as the "new religion".

Here is also what would happen: Those religious "holdouts" would be hounded down and exterminated as radicals. Entire cities would be wiped off the face of the earth, in order to elliminate the few (there would be no morality concerns, as "vermin" are the anxst of Deus ex Machina.

Finally, Israel would be targeted, simply for what it stands for. (A God in control, and a people who worship that God).

Final count down...

Gee, this all seems strangely familiar...don't you think?

You really think so?

I mean, I am usually able to follow when you point like this, but for some reason I am not seeing it. It is like there is a wall I cannot penetrate on this. It is spooky to me, I am usually able to see ahead fairly well, but on this I draw a blank.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Q!

You really think so?

I mean, I am usually able to follow when you point like this, but for some reason I am not seeing it. It is like there is a wall I cannot penetrate on this. It is spooky to me, I am usually able to see ahead fairly well, but on this I draw a blank.

Sorry, forgot to add:

Hitler, "Mein Kampf" 1925. Now does it sound familiar?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Sorry, forgot to add:

Hitler, "Mein Kampf" 1925. Now does it sound familiar?

No, I am still not following the analogy. Hitler was a Christian and supported the church.

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf. "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

[wil]

There are also the Essential Doctrines of Christianity.

1. The Deity of Christ.

Agree. Where we often differ is the continual begetting of the only begotten.

2. Salvation by Grace.

Agree. Such an awesome thing when you know it was you that pushed the pendelum and you that is standing in the way but when it swings back it misses....

3. The Resurrection of Christ.

Agree. Of course I'd probably have asked to feel the holes in his hands too.

4. The Gospel.

Agree, these books bring some very good news.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Now Chris, isn't that a general speculation of "fundamentalists"? Or are you thinking about certain of the fundamental faiths, and grouping all together...?

I'm thinking about my own upbringing, all the people I know, and the ones I've met online in the last seven years of doing this BB thing.

Let me tell you something Josh. I know you're a warrior, and I know you have a generally conservative bent. But you're also a Catholic (pretty much), and you're a patriot. Fundamentalism and fundamentalists are more dangerous than I think you've imagined. They may be your political allies on the right, but they have their own agenda. If that dominionist agenda were ever allowed to come to fruition you wouldn't fair any better than a homosexual Pagan. So think about it. The RCC has come out clearly in opposition to fundamentalism, calling it dangerous and conducive to "intellectual suicide." That's pretty strong language!

I'm not giving the fundies a break. You all can do whatever you want. I have respect for all human beings, but I don't have to respect ignorant, destructive ideas. We aren't living in a vacuum. Everything is political.

Chris

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

No, I am still not following the analogy. Hitler was a Christian and supported the church.

Message was not for you to begin with sir. And Hitler was alot of things, but Christian isn't one of them.

I think this is one time where you should sit back and watch/read awhile, before engaging in dialogue...

v/r

Joshua

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I'm thinking about my own upbringing, all the people I know, and the ones I've met online in the last seven years of doing this BB thing.

Let me tell you something Josh. I know you're a warrior, and I know you have a generally conservative bent. But you're also a Catholic (pretty much), and you're a patriot. Fundamentalism and fundamentalists are more dangerous than I think you've imagined. They may be your political allies on the right, but they have their own agenda. If that dominionist agenda were ever allowed to come to fruition you wouldn't fair any better than a homosexual Pagan. So think about it. The RCC has come out clearly in opposition to fundamentalism, calling it dangerous and conducive to "intellectual suicide." That's pretty strong language!

I'm not giving the fundies a break. You all can do whatever you want. I have respect for all human beings, but I don't have to respect ignorant, destructive ideas. We aren't living in a vacuum. Everything is political.

Chris

shoot, my dad just said the same thing...you sure you ain't part of Union 636?

If what you say is true, then there are problems with the Christian faith. However, Chris, there are 1.2 billion CATHOLICS and only 300 million Fundamentelist types in the world. One way of believing is as old as the hills, and the other, is well rather new.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Message was not for you to begin with sir. And Hitler was alot of things, but Christian isn't one of them.

I think this is one time where you should sit back and watch/read awhile, before engaging in dialogue...

v/r

Joshua

True I read the work which he put his name to quite a while ago (actual authorship in question), and true their are arguments all over the board with Christians trying to disown him. I merely provided a link to one source of information of many which put him squarely in the theological camp. Many Christians over the ages have committed atrocities in the name of G-d. Not saying they aren't any more wacked than the suicide bombers for Allah but it is out there.

Now if in this public forum you are indicating that others cannot respond to your comments and are required to simply sit back... you'll continue to be displeased. Your analogy was questioned. And in my book it still is, do you refute the comments in the link I provided, from which I quoted?

[Prober]

(Quick to sense rudeness afoot, Politenessman hurls his steel hankie.)

[Francis king]

k, I'll be polite...

Biblical Inerrancy:

to believe that the bible is the undisputed and infallible word of God is a foolish position for any sane and rational adult to stand for- each schism in the catholic church, and every sponsor of the bible since the year Dot has altered the tenets... this is not top secret information and can be found at wikipedia...under catholicism...

for instance, the Orthodox church became orthodox because theologians voted on whether Mary was to be venerated as the womb of god, or whether she should be non ascended, a mere mortal like the rest, and the main body of the church decided that Mary shouldn't be venerated like this anymore, which she had been, and because of this, some catholics joke that Mary had to wait til 1956 before she got into heaven...

for instance, we do not know with certainty whether the apochrypal or gnostic texts were once, potentially, original bible teachings, and becuase the bible had been set in stone by then nobody really gives much consideration whether some bits of them really are teachings of jesus...

for instance, the KJV is called such because King James sponsored the writing of it, and its why there are so many references to honouring kings in it... the ppl who wrote it wanted to curry favour with the King, and did, and got loads of money for it...

for the bible to be the infalliable undisputed word of God, from cover to cover, based on this evidence, is impossible...

The divinity of Jesus

the christian church has also battled about this, at one point jesus was god, at another, jesus was man... in the end, they decided on man/god... some xtians left, another schism formed, etc, etc...

The virgin birth

if jesus was born of a woman, then he was a man... however, if he was born of a virgin, then it made him more godly... see above... many religious traditions have miraculous births for their messiahs- krsna was born becuase his mother ran through a field where a man had left a bit of his "seed" on blade of grass, buddha's mother lay down in a field and an elephant appeared and entered the side of her body, etc, etc... as far as I am aware, unless artificial insemination occurs, then a man and woman must get jiggy to produce life... unless Our Lady had a turkey baster, it seems unlikely, yet if u are a person who believes God is all powerful, then yes, it is possible...

The belief that Jesus died to redeem man

the crucifixtion is another bug bear which has caused schisms within the over arching body of the church... look for councils, do a bit of research, and u will see for urself... again, some christians believe that it was God's plan for his son to die on the cross and save mankind, others don't... some ppl, like me, believe that Jesus would have had a great career, had they not put him on the cross...

of course christianity would have a purpose without jesus dying on the cross... his teachings, his ministry, they would be important, as important as they are today, to xtians... whether he died or not on the cross doesn't matter- that u know who he is, and what he said, even though he lived 1000's of years ago, that, to me, is what matters...

An expectation of the Second Coming, or physical return of Jesus Christ to initiate his 1000-year rule on the earth

I have a problem with this bit... lets all believe that one day a messiah will come and make everything okay... why wait, ppl? why not do it anyway, so that when he does come back, he'll be proud of us..?

again, most religions around the world have messiahs... they never seem to appear... why the wait? ...

so, u might think, if the bible aint the word of god, but the words of men, and if jesus was just a man, what good is the bible, and what is the point of worshipping jesus..?

all I can say then, is... within the bible, there are some truths, some things Jesus did say, we should look out for them bits, as they are worthy bits... we should have respect for this crazy young jew who wanted us try and make the world a better place, and we should be thankful he existed... beyond that...? well, what more do u want...?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Prober

(Quick to sense rudeness afoot, Politenessman hurls his steel hankie.)

ouch, ok, my bad. forgot to add the Namaste Q. As it is true, I know where your heart is. I just don't understand your thinking at the moment. My goal is exploration and increased understanding. I also am in favor of full disclosure. ie simply because someone of my organization or belief system embarrasses me, or the orginization, does not mean we rewrite history to right him out. We make apologies and ammends for our mistakes, not excuses and move on.

I'd like to throw my red linen hankie to ask the judges for an instant replay...Politenessman is just to quick sometimes...

[Prober]

Originally Posted by wil

I'd like to throw my red linen hankie to ask the judges for an instant replay...Politenessman is just to quick sometimes...

Sorry. I didn't really mean anyone in particular. I was trying to make a funny over a cartoon I saw called "Politenessman". Some of it is not very funny, but the fact that he has a steel hankie as a weapon cracks me up!

Best Regards,
Mark

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, wil!

Originally Posted by wil

No, I am still not following the analogy. Hitler was a Christian and supported the church.

Yet around here somewhere within the last couple of months this very issue came up, and a rather humanist sounding quote centered around eugenics. Fully realizing that a "good" politician knows how to play to an audience, I can see where Hitler could make an appeal to those Christians of his concern, just as he could to others. Officially, Germany is Christian. Specifically, Protestant. Lutheran, if I am not mistaken. So Hitler would have had to play to a Christian audience for political support.

That said, I hardly think he represents Christianity any more than as a "token" Christian.