a POLITE discussion of the 5 fundamentals

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I'm not giving the fundies a break. You all can do whatever you want. I have respect for all human beings, but I don't have to respect ignorant, destructive ideas. We aren't living in a vacuum. Everything is political.

This either seems so out of character for you, or I have long misunderstood...

Is this the same guy that said this place needed shaking up? Who preferred a mosh pit atmosphere? That basically everything should be allowed, metaphorically knees to the groin and elbows to the eyes? Who lamented the banning of one previous such fundie, specifically a Christian fundie?

I have a little different view. Yes, all POV's should be allowed, up to the point of trying to lord over one another, hence the reason I am not in favor of "mosh pit," and go to lengths to stress manners and respect.

Fundies have their hearts in the right place, like so very many others. Sometimes they simply need to see that in action. But like people in general, I have no illusions of saving everybody. Number one, that is up to G-d, however each happens to understand what that means. Number two, some people are not ready or are otherwise (self-) determined not to be assisted. If such people wish to observe, that's fine with me. When they wish to barge in and take over, I have issues with that.

Now, I asked the questions I did because I feel it is a legitimate exercise, probably the kind most of us do anyway, whether or not we are free enough to be able to admit it or not. I have no illusions that consensus equals truth, in any sense other than political. Some great truths we understand well now, were flights of fancy and idiot's dreams not all that long ago. Who's to say what will be regarded as truth a hundred years from now, that makes us look like fools. These kinds of truths are generational, that is, they change with time. Subjectivity all over again...

Underneath is an objective reality that must by definition be...but are any of us actually capable of looking at this raw reality for what it is, as it is and how it is? I have no personal doubt G-d exists, there is far too much circumstantial evidence that cannot be denied. It can be circumvented, it can be ignored, but it cannot be denied.

All the rest...religion, philosophy, science, memetic paradigms upon memetic paradigms...are merely conscious tools we use to attempt to understand. But these tools are functionally lacking and limited...the Buddhist "looking at the finger, not the moon to which it is pointed" or the Taoist "the way that can be named is not the true way" kind of thing.

I keep coming back in my mind to Schrodinger's cat...we might look to see if it is dead or alive, but our personal reality is relative to our view and preference...when the reality is probably more like "dead and alive." Sounds paradoxical, no doubt to some degree it is. But are we not dying even now while we are alive?

The concept of sacrifice is so horrible to consider...because it is too grisly to think of blood spilling out of a throat one has deliberately cut open? Nature is far more grisly, yet we consider nature beautiful...talk about paradox.

We have a tendency to whitewash what doesn't appeal to our preferred sense of decorum...which really is no different than any generation before us, leaving us their personal dictates to build upon, dismantle and remodel. The earth is flat...the earth is round...the earth is flat...the earth is round. In this generation we feel we have definitive proof that the earth is round.

Yet, what if I told you the earth is pear shaped?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

True I read the work which he put his name to quite a while ago (actual authorship in question), and true their are arguments all over the board with Christians trying to disown him. I merely provided a link to one source of information of many which put him squarely in the theological camp. Many Christians over the ages have committed atrocities in the name of G-d. Not saying they aren't any more wacked than the suicide bombers for Allah but it is out there.

Now if in this public forum you are indicating that others cannot respond to your comments and are required to simply sit back... you'll continue to be displeased. Your analogy was questioned. And in my book it still is, do you refute the comments in the link I provided, from which I quoted?

I think there is a miscommunication here. I wasn't berating you. I was assuring you that I wasn't directing my post at you in a negative way. If I worded it poorly then I apologize. I was also literaly referring to the suggestion that if you read Mein Kampf, you would understand that he was not a Christian in any sense of the word.

I had no guile while I made my post.

v/r

Joshua

[Dor]

Originally Posted by wil

What if these five fundamentals were at some point in time proved without a shadow of a doubt to each and every one of us not to be true....

Actually Wil, my question is what will it do when they are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and they will be, to be true?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dor

Actually Wil, my question is what will it do when they are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and they will be, to be true?

Namaste Dor,

So as to catch up, we did start another thread on this...but so we all don't take anything out of context.

..what if. What if these five fundamentals were at some point in time proved without a shadow of a doubt to each and every one of us not to be true.

I'm not saying or implying they are....but what if...what would that do...would it destroy the church as we know it, would it destroy our belief system...or would the church and our faith be strong enough to survive it?

In your question, the churches would stand up and do a jig in celebration. However many would still not listen. In my question I believe many churches would have issues...but many will stand and survive.

Time will tell.