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Postmaster · 10-11-2006, 11:51 AM

If Baha'is stay withdrawn from politics what happens if a political system or government becomes corrupted?

arthra · 10-11-2006, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

If Baha'is stay withdrawn from politics what happens if a political system or government becomes corrupted?

That's a very good question Postmaster! and thanks for asking...

A couple of things that I think are important here to suggest and that is Baha'is have now had experience in several different political and social systems around the world in the past hundred years or so ...so even though we are a relatively new revelation there some historical examples to draw from.

Baha'is have been a fairly large minority in Iran-Persia for some time now being currently outlawed but under past regimes somewhat tolerated with varying amounts of persecution and oppression.. The Baha'is during the past century have been non-partisan over all. Refusing to side with Constitutional or Monarchical or Radical elements in the Iranian political theatre...this lead to tensions where the Baha'is were sought after to support say the different parties.

Generally Baha'is were perceived as modernists and Bhaa'is were also generally well trained, educated people as a group. But anyway by remaining neutral and being very principled about this neutrality albeit under pressure the Baha'is I think as a minority were able too avoid some of the political roller coasters and while at times were accused of various things most people I think were appreciative. While non-partisan Baha'is were loyal to the duly constituted authorities thus earnig a degree of respect over time. In the current regime the Faith is outlawed and suppressed.

But I would say as a principled movement the Baha'is in Iran being a fairly large minority are admired albeit secretely and informally by many people so the effect has been gradual over an extended time say over the past century or so. There were examples in the past regime where Baha'is were entrusted with some important posts that indicated they were valued.

So by their example, integrity and reputation for being principled the Faith in Iran has survived albeit currently under a great deal of pressure and provided a good example under these dire circumstances.

During the Nazi regime in Germany the Baha'is were relatively few in number and also maintained a strict neautrality and were also not involved in any plots or resistance activities as such but nonetheless were imprisoned and their literature seized and so on... but after WWII the German Baha'i community revived and is the home for the main House of Worship on the Eurpoean continent.

Early in the twentieth century, Baha'is from Iran settled in Ashqabad and built the first Baha'i House of Worship there and it was tolerated by the Tsarist regime. Under the early Communist regime a measure of toleration continued however Communist youth Komsommal organization resented the fact that many youth in the area were attracted to the Faith and eventually the Baha'is were oppressed along with other religious groups. The House of Worship was seized and at first leased back to the Baha'is and later used as a Museum. The Baha'is were shipped around by Stalin to Siberia or returned to Iran but some Baha'is survived and today the Faith is recognized and permitted to function in the Russian Federation.

So in dictaorships the Faith is usually suppressed but our influence in spite of that has been I would say very principled and exemplary. So the Faith provides an example through it's principles over the long haul that do I believe influence society.

People have to understand though that our goals are very long range and so we are not focused say on the next election or involved in politics whatsoever, but we do have a template in mind for the future in which there can be a democratic (maybe a constitutional monarchical society with parliament type government) society involving all classes with a reduction of the extremes of poverty and wealth and a stable society under law.

- Art

BruceDLimber · 10-11-2006, 02:42 PM

Hi again, Postmaster! :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

If Baha'is stay withdrawn from politics what happens if a political system or government becomes corrupted?

Art has already answered this well, so I'll just add a couple comments.

A>Early in the twentieth century, Baha'is from Iran settled in Ashqabad and built the first Baha'i House of Worship there and it was tolerated by the Tsarist regime. Under the early Communist [Soviet] regime a measure of toleration continued however Communist youth Komsommal organization resented the fact that many youth in the area were attracted to the Faith and eventually the Baha'is were oppressed along with other religious groups. The House of Worship was seized and at first leased back to the Baha'is and later used as a Museum. The Baha'is were shipped around by Stalin to Siberia or returned to Iran but some Baha'is survived....

Indeed, most of what Baha'i literature they had for those many years was from pure memorization as they weren't allowed to keep any Baha'i books!

One of the most touching stories I've heard came from the daughter of a well-known Baha'i (he held the rank of Hand of the Cause of God) who accompanied him on his visit to Russia after the communist regime had finally fallen after nearly 70 years of oppession of the Baha'is.

One of the very elderly Baha'is there asked him, "Tell me: are there Baha'is anywhere besides Iran and Russia now?"

:-)

(We've been established in literally every country on earth since 1991.)

And one other example of why our non-involvement in partisan politics is so important and so rewarding:

Some decades ago, the South Vietnamese government went around to the various religions and gave each one a cash grant. The Baha'is refused to take theirs as contributions to Baha'i Funds are restricted to enrolled members only. The government was amazed, but couldn't object.

Several years later, government officials came around again and demanded that the religions issue statements of support for the regime. Because the Baha'is hadn't taken the money, they were able to refuse the request, no questions asked....

Do feel free to keep the questions coming: they're always most welcome! :-)

Regards,

Bruce

Postmaster · 10-11-2006, 09:20 PM

So in short what your pointing out is, Baha'is have been around when corrupt governments have been around and basically don't do anything? So you couldn't stage a demonstration either?

In ancient Greece without political activists democracy wouldn't have been born. Probably changed the world for the better today.

If religion progresses as does technology and medicine I would say politics are liable to progressive change for benefit too. Is God depending on non Baha'is?

wil · 10-11-2006, 09:39 PM

I am completely not knowledgeable on any of this...and know of only what I've read on this thread...however it seems to me inaction is an action that speaks very loud. And I see it completely different than apathy.

Postmaster · 10-11-2006, 10:39 PM

Are you sure were not stepping over the line into dangerous ignorance?

Postmaster · 10-11-2006, 11:14 PM

I suppose politics can only truely progress if the people change first.

arthra · 10-11-2006, 11:14 PM

My friend Postmaster...

I think that what occurred in ancient Greece was important but it had it's limitations...only certain citizens (women and slaves, well they didn't vote) could vote but it was nonetheless important in the developement of democracy.

Protests and rebellions have led to social chaos and revolution along with polarized and broken societies...I don't think I need to recount for you here how divisive and broken societies have become because of civil wars and revolutions.

The difference today is that Baha'is are buiilding the foundations of a world civilization and eventually we believe this can be accomplished as man turns to the principles of divine revelation.

Baha'is across much of the world have just completed a process of going to conventions where we elect representives to go to our National Conventions in April of next year..we call it Ridwan ...anyway we have accomplished this process of electing representatives without parties and without caucases...

We elect all our representatives in an atmosphere of prayer ... in contrast to rancorous politics. So we feel we have something to offer a tired, corrupt world.

- Art

BruceDLimber · 10-12-2006, 12:59 PM

Greetings, greetings!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art

Baha'is across much of the world have just completed a process of going to conventions where we elect representives to go to our National Conventions in April of next year..we call it Ridwan ...anyway we have accomplished this process of electing representatives without parties and without caucases...

We elect all our representatives in an atmosphere of prayer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I suppose politics can only truely progress if the people change first.

PRECISELY!

And what we Baha'is are doing is this:

Instead of concentrating on a dying tree and trying to staple the falling leaves back on, we're busy planting a NEW tree!

We see the spiritual transformation of the world as the prerequisite for establishment of a better, unific society that will be a considerable improvement on the animosity and division that are around now.

So we're far from uninterested, and it's only partisan stuff that we avoid.

And BTW, the Baha'i elections Art mentioned above are conducted in a totally non-partisan manner, without nominations, campaigning, or discussion of individual personalities. Instead, after a period of prayer and reflection, each person votss (by secret ballot) for whoever he or she feels best qualified to serve. Whoever gets the most votes is automatically elected.

Works great for us! :-)

Best,

Bruce

arthra · 10-12-2006, 03:33 PM

I should also add that many Baha'is were active in the civili rights movement before Martin Luther King ...and some deomonstrated but these were non-partisan demonstrations atthe time. We have to be very careful that our activities are non-partisan...never perceived as partisan.

- Art

arthra · 10-12-2006, 03:33 PM

I should also add that many Baha'is were active in the civili rights movement before Martin Luther King ...and some deomonstrated but these were non-partisan demonstrations atthe time. We have to be very careful that our activities are non-partisan...never perceived as partisan.

- Art

arthra · 10-12-2006, 03:34 PM

I should also add that many Baha'is were active in the civili rights movement before Martin Luther King ...and some deomonstrated but these were non-partisan demonstrations atthe time. We have to be very careful that our activities are non-partisan...never perceived as partisan.

- Art

Popeyesays · 11-17-2006, 03:23 AM

Corrupted governments are part of the old order. The old order is crumbling away while we talk about this. It is a natural process. At the same time another natural process is ongoing, the unfoldment of a new order that establishes real justice in the world.

That's how it has gone before each time a new dispensation has bloomed. In the future this new dispensation will bloom, mature and prosper, and then begin to decay so that the next dispensation can be ushered in.

How is this different from the Millenialist view of Christianity and other older religions? We believe that WE have to take up the hammers and saws, the lumber and the nails and BUILD that new order with our own sweat and effort.

"The field is indeed so immense, the period so critical, the Cause so great, the workers so few, the time so short, the privilege so priceless, that no follower of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, worthy to bear His name, can afford a moment's hesitation. That God-born Force, irresistible in its sweeping power, incalculable in its potency, unpredictable in its course, mysterious in its workings, and awe-inspiring in its manifestations -- a Force which, as the Báb has written, "vibrates within the innermost being of all created things," and which, according to Bahá'u'lláh, has through its "vibrating influence," "upset the equilibrium of the world and revolutionized its ordered life" -- such a Force, acting even as a two-edged sword, is, under our very eyes, sundering, on the one hand, the age-old ties which for centuries have held together the fabric of civilized society, and is unloosing, on the other, the bonds that still fetter the infant and as yet unemancipated Faith of Bahá'u'lláh. The undreamt-of opportunities offered through the operation of this Force -- the American believers must now rise, and fully and courageously exploit them."
(Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 46)

Regards,
Scott

I, Brian · 11-17-2006, 04:02 PM

To be honest, I think political corruption is simply an extension of competitiveness in the human animal, and that all political systems (and other social organisations) will become "corrupted" in some manner once they grow past a certain threshold point.

It's fair to say that I don't believe an expanded Baha'i faith will be immune to this - but I think it's fair to say that any religious organisation of significant size will inevitably develop it's own politics that distract from a core message.

2c.

arthra · 11-17-2006, 05:14 PM

"It's fair to say that I don't believe an expanded Baha'i faith will be immune to this - "

Well considering the manner Baha'i elections have been carried out around the world and over the past sixty years or so without campaigning or caucases it would seem to me it would be less "inevitable" than you believe.

- Art