A 'real' Christmas story.

[_Z_]

Both your belief and his existence make’s the story real – in meaning!



There, a little Christmas diplomacy for you!



btw lots of people in my circles are talking along similar lines - y'know!

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by _Z_

btw lots of people in my circles are talking along similar lines - y'know!

Err, OK!

Hope you and yours have a very Merry Christmas, Z, and a healthy prosperous New Year!

cheers,
lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by _Z_

Both your belief and his existence make’s the story real – in meaning!



There, a little Christmas diplomacy for you!



btw lots of people in my circles are talking along similar lines - y'know!

Most Blessed Be...Z to you and yours. And as a friend of mine says "cool Yule".

v/r

Q

[akbar]

Thanks Ciel and other friends. I think Lunamoth has already appreciated what I would have.

I think Mr Z did not wanted to heart any one's feelings or faith. He intended for a rebounce to reality. He wanted to know reasonable answers from the followers of Christ to the questions from non Christs.

[_Z_]

Absolutely so Akbar



I think the questions are there to be asked, I like the idea of an imperfect Jesus! A human being that raised himself to son of man [like god on earth].



Whatever he was, I feel the nature of Jesus raises itself above questioning! So do not despair my Christian friends and have a merry Christmas and a happy new year!

[InChristAlways]

I would just like to put forwards a ‘realists’ version of the birth of Christ. It is done in half – jest so please do not take offence or literally.

A young Mary was betrothed to Joseph, Mary being only 13 years of age [approx] rather liked a younger man [the real father of Jesus]. She had an affair with this young man and become pregnant. Then she thought oh damn! I’ll get stoned to death now, hmm I better think of something quick, so she comes up with the idea of becoming miraculously pregnant by god. Now Joseph being an older man thought hmm, I can have her stoned to death or I can ‘have’ her for the rest of my life, as Mary was rather beautiful he thought the latter was a far better idea! Thus he to contrived a story concerning angels whom told him that the child would be the Son of God. Unfortunately in those days it was not possible to know the sex of a child so Joseph conceived of another cunning plan – so off they went to live in Egypt for a few years! Luckily it was a boy or else we would have had quite another story.

Hi Z. Paul warned his people of "jewish fables" [providing one believes Paul/Saul was an inspired writer]Some "messianic jews" feel Paul was "anti jewish/Law" so they "disown" him and his writings. To each his own. Imagine Jesus being layed in an "animal trough/stall" at birth.
Merry Christ-mas.
Steve

Titus 1:14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commands of men, turning themselves away from the truth;

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under [the] law, /5/ in order to redeem those who were under [the] law, so that we might receive adoption as children.

Malachi 3:1 Lo, I am sending My messenger, And he hath prepared a way before Me, And suddenly come in unto his temple[#1964] Doth the Lord whom ye are seeking, Even the messenger of The Covenant, Whom ye are desiring, Lo, he is coming, says the Lord of Hosts.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by _Z_

Absolutely so Akbar



I think the questions are there to be asked, I like the idea of an imperfect Jesus! A human being that raised himself to son of man [like god on earth].



Whatever he was, I feel the nature of Jesus raises itself above questioning! So do not despair my Christian friends and have a merry Christmas and a happy new year!

An imperfect Jesus...Cette impossible mon ami. He isn't god on earth. He is God and Author of the Universe. He is, not was, that is the difference between He and all others.

That is why Christians do not despair.

May you and yours also find peace, and a hopeful New Year.

v/r

Q

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Z,
I highly reccomend you procure if possible a copy of The Last Temptaion of Christ, and/or A Greek Passion, by Nikos Kazantakis. Both offer a beautiful insight from the perespective of an incredulous observer and set in the contextual framework of the most 'authentic' christian church still around, Greek Orthodoxy. The former book was of course made into the much villified film of the same name but Kazantakis is a master and the book is one of those that stay with you for good.

As for the question/topic raised.....was a bit bold here was'nt it !!

As for an answer, is there a person anywhere who is not in some way sick that does not hold the allegory of the Christ tale as comforting and desirable?? I have as much time for church's as politicians, both are nothing more than institutions of power and control but the story of Christ is not the story of christianity. As for 'imaculate conceptions' statisticly one in ten children do not have the DNA of their alleged biological fathers....so it happens all the time!!

Anyway Wishing one and all a very merry Christmas and a wonderful, prosperous and pleasantly suprising new year.


Regards

TE

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

He isn't god on earth. He is God and Author of the Universe. He is, not was, that is the difference between He and all others.

Q

With the usual imho's added ... I could of course, only nod. Otherwise, I'm Batman.

But it is Christmas! Season's Greetings to All!

andrew

[InChristAlways]

As for an answer, is there a person anywhere who is not in some way sick that does not hold the allegory of the Christ tale as comforting and desirable?? I have as much time for church's as politicians, both are nothing more than institutions of power and control but the story of Christ is not the story of christianity.
As for 'imaculate conceptions' statisticly one in ten children do not have the DNA of their alleged biological fathers....so it happens all the time!!

Hi Tao. If Christ was not born of the Holy Spirit, died, raised up and ascended, then "Jacob/Israel" is still in the "Grave".

I myself believe we should use the word like this "Christ-ianity" as Christ simply means "anointed" as were the priests and kings in the OT. Islam is essentially "Christ-ians" also, as they also believe Jesus Christ was a Great Prophet.

The jewish religion tells us we corrupt the Words of the OT [Isaiah 53 for example] since much of the OT does concern God's firstborn Nation of the "flesh", Israel/Jacob/Judah and Jerusalem.

Jesus was born into a literal "graveyard", as a "great Light" born into a world of Darkness.

(Young) John 1:9 He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world; 1 John 2:8 again, a new command I write to you, which thing is true in him and in you, because the darkness["grave"] doth pass away, and the True Light doth now shine;

Was the "Messiah/Christ/Savior" only to come for Israel/Judah and open up their "graves" and not the rest of the World?

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore, prophesy, and thou hast said unto them, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I am opening your graves, And have brought you up out of your graves, O My people, And brought you in unto the land of Israel. 13 And ye have known that I [am] Jehovah, In My opening your graves, And in My bringing you up out of your graves, O My people. 14 And I have given My Spirit in you, and ye have lived, And I have caused you to rest on your land, And ye have known that I Jehovah, I have spoken, and I have done [it], An affirmation of Jehovah.' 15 And there is a word of Jehovah unto me, saying, 16 `And thou, son of man, take to thee one stick, and write on it, For Judah, and for the sons of Israel, his companions; and take another stick, and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel, his companions,

Imagine that, OC Judah/Israel's covenant with death would be atoned upon the laying of the Precious Stone of Isaiah 28, the bringing of the NC of Life to them.

Isaiah 28:17 And I have put judgment for a line, And righteousness for a plummet, And sweep away doth hail the refuge of lies, And the secret hiding-place do waters overflow. 18 And "covered over/atoned" hath been your covenant with death, And your provision with Sheol doth not stand,

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this "setting up"[#2749 "the stauros"?] is destined for the Falling and Rising up[#386 RESURRECTION] of many in Israel, and for a SIGN[#4592] which will be spoken against[#483] 35 yea and a sword shall pierce through thine own soul; that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.

[_Z_]

Hi Tao

As for the question/topic raised.....was a bit bold here wasn’t it !!

Yep it was, I am a bit like that – of course in the cold light of day, I could have been much more diplomatic! But most people know I am not afraid to question, sometimes the sword of truth comes down hard!



I have been debating this one at another forum and one chap said that the story is more than likely to have been written in retrospect. The ‘real’ story may be completely different – he could have simply grown up ordinarily the same as everyone else then become a great healer and prophet!



Quahom1



Sorry but why would god set himself as one man above all others? It is a great big universe out there – remember this [from when I first came here]…



Point 1. Was Jesus born on all of the planets with intelligent life?

2. If not then are most of the beings in the universe damned?

3. If he was [which would probably be mathematically impossible], then are they all humans?

4. Would they also be Romans & Jews with exactly the same history as earth history, or is the bible different on other planets?



The idea of god becoming a man just for us on this planet is impossible, not just that but I don’t believe he can overwrite the program!





Z

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by _Z_

Hi Tao







Yep it was, I am a bit like that – of course in the cold light of day, I could have been much more diplomatic! But most people know I am not afraid to question, sometimes the sword of truth comes down hard!



I have been debating this one at another forum and one chap said that the story is more than likely to have been written in retrospect. The ‘real’ story may be completely different – he could have simply grown up ordinarily the same as everyone else then become a great healer and prophet!



Quahom1



Sorry but why would god set himself as one man above all others? It is a great big universe out there – remember this [from when I first came here]…



Point 1. Was Jesus born on all of the planets with intelligent life?

2. If not then are most of the beings in the universe damned?

3. If he was [which would probably be mathematically impossible], then are they all humans?

4. Would they also be Romans & Jews with exactly the same history as earth history, or is the bible different on other planets?



The idea of god becoming a man just for us on this planet is impossible, not just that but I don’t believe he can overwrite the program!





Z

Then again we could be the only dupas that disobeyed Him in the first place...

[_Z_]

Then again we could be the only dupas that disobeyed Him in the first place...

Ha yes, there are more astral bodies out there than grains of sand on earth – I doubt if all other intelligent life is perfect! Not just that but if you concede that there is other life out there, then you must concede that the bible is not the literal truth!



Irrespective of the council of Nicea, Christians really need to climb down off their high perch and admit Jesus was a human being just like everyone else! He is still probably the greatest man who ever lived! As soon as you say he is more and higher than everyone else then you create an impossible philosophical stance i.e. you remove philosophy altogether and take away humanities higher nature and ever-present quest for truth! Christians may feel insulted at my heavy sword of truth – but I [and many millions of others] am insulted by the notion of Jesus as the ‘Son of god’ rather than Jesus whom raised himself to this likeness! Thus I feel I have every right to challenge this!!!!



Unless you [or anyone else] can defeat the red message in my former post – which I believe is impossible as the simple logic stands up for itself – then its humble time my friend!



Z

[InLove]

Hello _Z_, and Peace to All Here--

I am compelled to address a couple of ideas brought up on this thread, especially the last post. First, let me say that it looked like, for a while, there was a somewhat congenial agreement to disagree. Not sure it is still there, but I hope so.

Originally Posted by _Z_

Irrespective of the council of Nicea, Christians really need to climb down off their high perch and admit Jesus was a human being just like everyone else! He is still probably the greatest man who ever lived! As soon as you say he is more and higher than everyone else then you create an impossible philosophical stance i.e. you remove philosophy altogether and take away humanities higher nature and ever-present quest for truth! Christians may feel insulted at my heavy sword of truth – but I [and many millions of others] am insulted by the notion of Jesus as the ‘Son of god’ rather than Jesus whom raised himself to this likeness! Thus I feel I have every right to challenge this!!!!

There are many Christians--true ones--who are deeply saddened when they see non-believers being "put down" in the name of Christ. That is not what our dear Savior came to teach us, and it is not what He did. We are supposed to follow Him, and He Himself instructed us not to judge others, or we will be judged for doing so. That said, I am equally saddened by statements such as yours that paint all Christians as uppity and judgmental, with better-than-thou dispositions. To some unbelievers, it seems to be an automatic psychological connection: Christian=arrogant, uncaring, hateful. But surely you know this is not true--just read back through the thread at some of the gentle and diplomatic words that have come to you through believers in Christ.

I would also like to comment that I knew Christ in Spirit before I ever heard of the Council at Nicea.

As for Christ being the greatest man that ever lived, or a tremendous philosopher, or a wonderful guy--I must submit (and probably you have heard it before) that this is just faulty reasoning to me. If He went around spouting untruths, then he can be none of the above.

And of course, you have every right to challenge this--who said you didn't? If someone said this, they are mistaken. However, I have just as much right to believe what I believe, regardless of your challenge. And to defend my beliefs, if I am so inclined.

Originally Posted by _Z_

Unless you [or anyone else] can defeat the red message in my former post – which I believe is impossible as the simple logic stands up for itself – then its humble time my friend!

Your red message was:

Originally Posted by _Z_

Point 1. Was Jesus born on all of the planets with intelligent life?

2. If not then are most of the beings in the universe damned?

3. If he was [which would probably be mathematically impossible], then are they all humans?

4. Would they also be Romans & Jews with exactly the same history as earth history, or is the bible different on other planets?

Well, if there is life on other planets (and there very well may be) I figure that the Creator I believe in has the best interest of His entire creation at heart--and therefore, so does my Savior, who was there in the beginning.

You say that unless someone can "defeat" what you describe as simple logic that you believe stands up for itself, then you are right. However, unless you can prove what you challenge me to defeat, then your beliefs are just as much your opinion in my eyes as my beliefs are in yours.

InPeace,
InLove

[_Z_]

There are many Christians--true ones--who are deeply saddened when they see non-believers being "put down" in the name of Christ. That is not what our dear Savoir came to teach us, and it is not what He did

Absolutely!!! I know many, and I get on with them very well and have interesting debates with them, I am only attacking what I consider to be ignorance i.e. those who are not like this!



Yes I must say that the Christians here have reacted very courteously and risen above it, which is most admirable – but I did not write the thread as an attack, it was simply a literal interpretation from an alternate perspective – I am trying to show that it is a story that was most likely written in retrospect to glorify someone who in my opinion didn’t need it. The thing is that it’s aspects like a ‘virgin Mary,’ and statements that say everyone has to follow Christ or they cannot get into heaven that makes some Christians feel superior.

Well, if there is life on other planets (and there very well may be) I figure that the Creator I believe in has the best interest of His entire creation at heart--and therefore, so does my Savoir, who was there in the beginning

But Christ cannot have been born on all planets with intelligent life and still be the same Christ - my god can you imagine being crucified billions of times! Unless you believe in the duplicity of god? His message would be different – relative to the given world, there would be no Jews and Romans and no bible! There is no beginning to the universe! And god is surely something more universal – to define him as human male and of the nature of Christ, limits his scope somewhat, where would one draw the lines of definition and where does god end and that which is not god begin. I would personally start at the infinite, which is boundless and more importantly ‘incomparative’ [please take note of that meaning!!!] – drawing ‘god’ as human the opposite – comparative and limiting.



The logic has nothing to do with belief.



I’ll add some more…



5. If any two planets arrive at a relative historical point that Jesus should be born, then he would have to divide into two!



6. It is impossible to have duel synchronous histories! [Two or more planets with the same histories]



7. Why does god want to ‘save’ the entire universe – why not simply create perfection in the first place!



8. One cannot create what is already there i.e. the universe always exists in non-linear time and there was no ‘beginning’. [It is like a circle] therefore god cannot be the creator of the universe – it exists in its own right!



9. The truth is naked! No one can speak it – it may only be directed to or inferred. Knowing this why would god make himself manifest to deliver his word – and can he not speak?



10. We are all god as man! All of existence is god in their given form, [if god is a creator] god is thence universal.





All I wish for is Christians to admit Jesus is not god and that the trinity is false. Hmm that’s quite a lot isn’t it!





Z