A 'real' Christmas story.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by _Z_

Ha yes, there are more astral bodies out there than grains of sand on earth – I doubt if all other intelligent life is perfect! Not just that but if you concede that there is other life out there, then you must concede that the bible is not the literal truth!



Irrespective of the council of Nicea, Christians really need to climb down off their high perch and admit Jesus was a human being just like everyone else! He is still probably the greatest man who ever lived! As soon as you say he is more and higher than everyone else then you create an impossible philosophical stance i.e. you remove philosophy altogether and take away humanities higher nature and ever-present quest for truth! Christians may feel insulted at my heavy sword of truth – but I [and many millions of others] am insulted by the notion of Jesus as the ‘Son of god’ rather than Jesus whom raised himself to this likeness! Thus I feel I have every right to challenge this!!!!



Unless you [or anyone else] can defeat the red message in my former post – which I believe is impossible as the simple logic stands up for itself – then its humble time my friend!



Z

The Bible says nothing conclusive about other beings not existing but us. In fact Jesus states there are other sheep of a different fold that He must gather...

No one must concede anything. Really, just because one does not receive an answer to one's own satisfaction does not render the issue false, or true.

It is absolutely logical and true to claim that matter can not attain a velocity beyond that of the speed of light, and yet remain matter...until quantum physics are involved. Then the claim is false. It all depends on what set of rules one is using to determine the "truth" or falicy of an issue.

v/r

Q

[InLove]

Originally Posted by _Z_

But Christ cannot have been born on all planets with intelligent life and still be the same Christ - my god can you imagine being crucified billions of times! Unless you believe in the duplicity of god? His message would be different – relative to the given world, there would be no Jews and Romans and no bible! There is no beginning to the universe! And god is surely something more universal – to define him as human male and of the nature of Christ, limits his scope somewhat, where would one draw the lines of definition and where does god end and that which is not god begin. I would personally start at the infinite, which is boundless and more importantly ‘incomparative’ [please take note of that meaning!!!] – drawing ‘god’ as human the opposite – comparative and limiting.

But the Bible addresses Christ's mission here on earth--yes it reveals some about the universe and other beings, and names the Creator to be the eternal and (unborn and undying) ruler of all. But the Word given to us here on this planet relates to us, I believe.

To me, (and I am saying this in all sincerity--not to belittle your beliefs at all, for you are certainly entitled to them) it is your way of seeing God that limits Him. I know that I do not know everything about Him (I use "Him" out of convenience and His own example, but I do not refer to gender here--there are just many aspects of God that are difficult to express, perhaps impossible). Yes, I do believe in the Trinity aspect, but I do not limit God to it.

To me, the philosophy presented in the Word of God (and the proof of it to my own spirit) is the most truthful and sensible philosophy ever presented to this world--basically that Love conquers all. Why not from the very beginning, you ask? Well, I believe that we must see all sides of things before we can know the true nature of this Love--and yes, God's Creation suffers in order to grow. But in the philosophy of Love--that is, the sacrifice of Christ--God suffers more. How can I tell Love how to design me when Love is my Creator?

Why would I limit God and say that He cannot present Himself however He pleases? Especially when His very own Spirit witnesses to me that He is Love, and Love has no desire to do anything other than love His creation toward godliness? His timing is different than what we can understand. Yes, we are given what we refer to as "The Creation Story", but I assure you--okay, wait--I believe, that we are not fully created yet!

Originally Posted by _Z_

All I wish for is Christians to admit Jesus is not god and that the trinity is false. Hmm that’s quite a lot isn’t it!

Hmmm..hope that wasn't what you wanted for Christmas....


InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The Bible says nothing conclusive about other beings not existing but us. In fact Jesus states there are other sheep of a different fold that He must gather...

No one must concede anything. Really, just because one does not receive an answer to one's own satisfaction does not render the issue false, or true.

It is absolutely logical and true to claim that matter can not attain a velocity beyond that of the speed of light, and yet remain matter...until quantum physics are involved. Then the claim is false. It all depends on what set of rules one is using to determine the "truth" or falicy of an issue.

...Or one can put it this way, which is much more concise .

(Dontcha just love simultaneous posting?)

InPeace,
InLove

[InChristAlways]

Why would I limit God and say that He cannot present Himself however He pleases? Especially when His very own Spirit witnesses to me that He is Love, and Love has no desire to do anything other than love His creation toward godliness? His timing is different than what we can understand. Yes, we are given what we refer to as "The Creation Story", but I assure you--okay, wait--I believe, that we are not fully created yet!

Hi InLove. Perhaps "Manifested" might be a better word?

1 John 1:2 the life was manifested [#5319], and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested [#5319] to us --

Originally Posted by _Z_
All I wish for is Christians to admit Jesus is not god and that the trinity is false. Hmm that’s quite a lot isn’t it!

Hi Z. The word "trinity" is not in the bible though Godhead is.

Colossians 2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead [#2320] bodily,

2320. theotes theh-ot'-ace from 2316; divinity (abstractly):--godhead.2316. theos theh'-os of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:--X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

Perhaps revelation can give us some "clues".

Reve 19:13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His Name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 5 She bore a male Child who was to SHEPHERD all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 2:18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

[InLove]

Hi, InChristAlways--

Sure, "manifest" and "godhead" work (although I have seen other meanings offered up for this term, whereas the phrase "Trinity" always refers to the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit--with the exception of terminology used by those who are concerned about gender, which is not the issue here).

Same message.

InPeace,
InLove

[InLove]

Hi, InChristAlways--

Hope my last post did not sound rude--that was not my intent at all, but after re-reading it, I thought I should say so. It is just that I am more concerned with the meaning of the message than I am with semantics. But I do see what you mean.

I will try to provide you with some definitions I have from some well-respected Christian references that illustrate how "Godhead" is often used in a way which is more limiting than the term "Trinity", but I think that is probably for another thread sometime. It may take me a while--I am currently facing one particular mountain that will be difficult to climb unless I keep the proverbial pebbles out of my shoes.

(Edited to add: Perhaps the word "be" would work just as well as "present" or "manifest", as it is actually what God chose to call Himself--at least a form of it, as in "I AM"?)

Anyway, back to the conversation at hand....

InPeace,
InLove

[_Z_]

Q,

It is absolutely logical and true to claim that matter can not attain a velocity beyond that of the speed of light, and yet remain matter...until quantum physics are involved. Then the claim is false. It all depends on what set of rules one is using to determine the "truth" or fallacy of an issue

Good point! The truth is naked – one can only arrive at partial truths, as I would put it. Hence there is no literal truth in the bible or anywhere else; it is a wonderful piece of philosophical work if not taken literally!



Inlove,

But the Bible addresses Christ's mission here on earth--yes it reveals some about the universe and other beings, and names the Creator to be the eternal and (unborn and undying) ruler of all. But the Word given to us here on this planet relates to us, I believe.

Nothing wrong with Christ being a messenger for us on planet earth. But are the billions of other messengers then not the Son of God? What’s so special about us that god would give up on all those other planets?

It is your way of seeing God that limits Him.

I see the opposite as being true [no offence meant or taken]. But that is a thread of its own.

To me, the philosophy presented in the Word of God

It is the very philosophical nature of us humans that is dulled by the word of God, as this is dogma. Throughout history we have been seekers and there are many ‘truths’ out there – much of it in the bible probably more in the Upanishads and some interesting stuff in the Egyptian book of the dead. If god can speak [as he did to Moses] then now would be the perfect time to do it again – we could stick in on DVD and it would be undisputable y’know. Of course if he did speak then this would destroy our human nature to philosophise as concerns the truth etc, indeed is it not this very process that leads us to greater heights of understanding!

Why would I limit God and say that He cannot present Himself however He pleases?

Because all things are subject to principle even if he created them in the first place which I don’t believe. God would only have to create a single point then a million principles come into effect, creation is not magic, if there were a way to overwrite the program then god wouldn’t be the only person to do it and there would be chaos. Perhaps we need a thread asking if god is a creator! But I don’t want you guys n gals to think I am here to attack you all the time as I have also defended Christianity on many occasions – I am not actually against it, that would just be foolish as there is so much one can learn – one has to question to educate!

Hmmm..Hope that wasn't what you wanted for Christmas....

Ha ha yes I realised this as I was typing – no one are ever going to change there minds are they!



Thanx inlove, your post made a lot of sense – even if I did argue against it!



Inchristalways,

1 John 1:2 the life was manifested [#5319], and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested [#5319] to us

So eternal life was ‘manifested’ into limited life? Ah but that was the apple in Eden yes, that doomed humanity - and Eden existed on every planet in existence! Then before that everyone were immortal? Personally I wouldn’t do such a terrible thing to my children!

The word "trinity" is not in the bible though Godhead is

Interesting! I imagine a Hindu painting of the godhead with peoples of all races represented; now I would add all alien intelligence and animals etc. I wonder what an alien heaven would be like or would they share ours! What I am saying is where do you draw the lines! Does godhead gradually merge with minutely lesser beings then they to the next down the line, where does it end or is it universal i.e. everything is god thence we are all sons of god in that sense.

Colossians 2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead [#2320] bodily,

What does this mean? And what actually is a tabernacle? Godhead – bodily, I would take to mean the above statement that we are sons of god? Please correct me if I have misunderstood the meaning of this.

Reve 19:13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His Name is called The Word of God.

Again I contest that a word cannot mean the truth, as it is naked. It’s that ole literalist thing again isn’t it!

Revelation 12:1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. 5 She bore a male Child who was to SHEPHERD all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Hence my version of the story [which is of course as untrue as the actual story]! It just apears to be ridiculous [if literal] and I would hate to be ruled with a rod of iron I would stand there and take it until beaten to death and consider myself superior even if damned to hell for it! How un- philosophical and barbarous!



Z

[InLove]

Hey, _Z_--peace!

I am glad you responded. I am not willing to let this conversation die, for I believe it is a worthwhile one, and I find it interesting.

I am, however, quite tired at the moment. (Please, now--don't you take this as a retreat on my part .)

But as I mentioned, I do have a personal mountain (maybe a whole range) to deal with at the moment--and I am only in the foothills right now.

I may or may not be able to post much in the upcoming weeks. I will have to wait and see. But I want you to know that I have enjoyed this conversation with you, and hope to continue it, sooner or later. (I have this crazy idea that our thinking may not be as different as it appears, in some respects.)

Well, for today, anyway--InLove over and out and at peace.

[InChristAlways]

....Nothing wrong with Christ being a messenger for us on planet earth. But are the billions of other messengers then not the Son of God? What’s so special about us that god would give up on all those other planets? ...........

Hence my version of the story [which is of course as untrue as the actual story]! It just apears to be ridiculous [if literal] and I would hate to be ruled with a rod of iron I would stand there and take it until beaten to death and consider myself superior even if damned to hell for it! How un- philosophical and barbarous!

Hi Z. Perhaps other planets have already bowed the knee and they are waiting on us to also bow to God, but our own planet was promised a Chief Sheperd and Savior according to our Bible?

Btw the way, the word is "Shepherd", not rule and I wish more translations would use that word. The word for "rod" is a "staff" which Shepherds also used to ward off enemies of the flock, iron just happens to be stronger than wood.. All symbolic of course.

Reve 12: 5 She bore a male Childwho was to SHEPHERD [#4165] all nations with a rod/staff of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

4165. poimaino poy-mah'-ee-no from 4166; to tend as a shepherd of (figuratively, superviser):--feed (cattle), rule.4166. poimen poy-mane' of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively):--shepherd, pastor..

After all the Bible promised to send us a Shepherd.

Ezekiel 34:23 "I will establish one Shepherd over them, and he shall feed them -- My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd.

Since God cannot Lie, Every knee will bow the knee and all of His enemies will be made His footstool, either in this age or the ages of ages to come.

Isaiah 43:23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth [in] righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, 'Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him [men] shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him.

That would be kind of hard for God to do if He throws all the wicked into "Hellfire" forever wouldn't it? Is this what you are referring to?

Revelation 14:11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Btw Z, what is your short view of what happens after death so I can get an idea where you are coming from. Thanks brother, and peace and love to you and yours.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by _Z_

Q,





Good point! The truth is naked – one can only arrive at partial truths, as I would put it. Hence there is no literal truth in the bible or anywhere else; it is a wonderful piece of philosophical work if not taken literally!

Absolute fallacy. In macro physics, what I stated was absolutely true. In Quantum physics what I state is absolutely false...

Now you explain logically, the conundrum...

v/r

Q

Jesus defies all logic (as we know it). His concept is nuts to the most logical of us. But once understood, it is the most logical way of things that we can conceive of. In short my friend, Jesus is Lord.

Think out side of the box...Hellenist...

v/r

Q

[InLove]

As I said before, the logic of love is as viable as any philosophy known to man--actually, it is more for those who understand it.

Be careful about what you reject---it might just be exactly what you are looking for.

I know I said I was "out of here" but I guess I am not yet...

In Peace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InLove

As I said before, the logic of love is as viable as any philosophy known to man--actually, it is more for those who understand it.

Be careful about what you reject---it might just be exactly what you are looking for.

I know I said I was "out of here" but I guess I am not yet...

In Peace,
InLove

Love? Love trancends logic. It supercedes common sense. It places us in danger, when we'd be better off hidden. It is a dangerous weapon, for the good side.

v/r

Q

[InLove]

Hi, peace to all, and try as I might, I cannot escape this, now can I? Yes, love seems to defy all logic--yes it is dangerous, but only to those who fear it.

So all those people who said I was "dangerous" all those years were right? LOL--yes I was, but not in the way they thought.

The message of my Lord is truth that disturbs--it does transcend any philosophy that man can offer, no matter how talented.

It also comforts--why? Because it is the truth--

Now I realise we are not on the Christian board, and so, I think, as much as I am drawn to this conversation, I must now quit, because otherwise, I will break some rules (like I haven't already).

Really, guys--gotta go--

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by InLove

To me, the philosophy presented in the Word of God (and the proof of it to my own spirit) is the most truthful and sensible philosophy ever presented to this world--basically that Love conquers all. Why not from the very beginning, you ask? Well, I believe that we must see all sides of things before we can know the true nature of this Love--and yes, God's Creation suffers in order to grow. But in the philosophy of Love--that is, the sacrifice of Christ--God suffers more. How can I tell Love how to design me when Love is my Creator?

Mighty interesting thread this has grown to be. Hope to chime in more at some time to Z's interesting questions, but for now I must commend Q and InLove for some great answers and highlight this bit by InLove, which I think says it all.

peace all,
lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Mighty interesting thread this has grown to be. Hope to chime in more at some time to Z's interesting questions, but for now I must commend Q and InLove for some great answers and highlight this bit by InLove, which I think says it all.

peace all,
lunamoth

Christmas is Christ's mass. Regardless of what non Christians think, this is the grace we prayed for, and are reminded of every year. It is what makes us, us. I don't want be be anything else...

v/r

Q