a study in the understanding yhwh & elohim - Page 4

inhumility · 11-05-2006, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aburaees

I did not. You asked me which version of Islam was the right path, and I told you it wasn't my call to make - I simply said that nobody has a monopoly over the truth.

Hi
I liked your posts here.Truth is important not the majority or minority.
I am an Ahmadi-a faith in Islam
Thanks

Dor · 11-05-2006, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

One of man's greatest follies, is underestimating God...yet we do it daily.

Yep most do.

wil · 11-05-2006, 12:59 PM

Tangentially and purely selfishly I'm still trying to grasp the OP, hence reposting...

Am I missing something? It is my understanding that we have two groups of authors that were merged in the early books of the bible. The Yahwists, and the Elohists...hence we get Gen1 and Gen2 versions of creation, and the two versions of the animals on the ark.

We've got oral traditions which like oral traditions the words and thoughts are modified over generations to fit beliefs. Then when the stories are eventually written down by various groups in the land they naturally vary.

Like the bible being 66 books culled together out of hundreds in the early centuries of Christianity, the Hebrew books and stories were culled together at some point in time and to satisfy some of the people some of the time, some of each of their stories had to show up in the book (Genisis) So we get two names from the two belief systems which are translated later from Hebrew into Greek...

Am I at a loss in this regard? Now I know this information is viewed differently as well in Judaic traditions...we have the Orthodox who have the 5 books brought down by Moses. On through the conservative, reformed, liberal, and qabalists... I believe the information above is accepted from the middle down...and expanded upon as we go....

Faithfulservant · 11-05-2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

I get it.

I should think that Allah and God are the same thing. Whether one is saved by worshiping Allah is another discussion, I guess.

Perhaps that comes under the "...many sheep have I..." thing.

Thanks.

"Every spirit which does not acknowledge that Jesus has come in the flesh... is the spirit of the antichrist..." (1 John 2:18-23; 4:1-6)

Islam rejects God's Son. Consequently, it puts itself outside of the truth. Islam is not a way that leads to my God, because no one comes to the Father, except through Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

I was curious about your "many sheep have i" Im not familiar with it and I did a search and could not find anything... So I thought I would post what I know of "sheep" and the shephard who is Jesus Christ.

John 10:14 am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.

john 10:26-27 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Quahom1 · 11-05-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

"Every spirit which does not acknowledge that Jesus has come in the flesh... is the spirit of the antichrist..." (1 John 2:18-23; 4:1-6)

Islam rejects God's Son. Consequently, it puts itself outside of the truth. Islam is not a way that leads to my God, because no one comes to the Father, except through Jesus Christ (John 14:6).

I was curious about your "many sheep have i" Im not familiar with it and I did a search and could not find anything... So I thought I would post what I know of "sheep" and the shephard who is Jesus Christ.

John 10:14 am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.

john 10:26-27 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

I think it might have been, "there are other sheep..." (John 10: 26).

Faithfulservant · 11-05-2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I think it might have been, "there are other sheep..." (John 10: 26).

They arent His sheep, though.. I wonder if its a case of someone misquoting the bible. It happens lol

cyberpi · 11-05-2006, 04:44 PM

Then I advise a careful review of Matthew 25:31-46 so that one knows positively what His sheep are... as defined and stated by Jesus Christ (pbuh).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No. Christianity is a way of life, and is a faith. Denominations are religions. And yup, Jesus did teach that. In fact He says the only "religion He endorses" is the taking care of widows and orphans.

Very well. By your words Faith is NOT a religion. Religion was written by man, and Jesus Christ (pbuh) endorses the religion of Islam, JW, Mormons, Liberal Christians... and even the many atheists who might simply be lost sheep... but a sheep nevertheless. As for the wolves and the goats... it seems they did come in sheeps clothing, didn't they.

Faithfulservant · 11-05-2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Then I advise a careful review of Matthew 25:31-46 so that one knows positively what His sheep are... as defined and stated by Jesus Christ (pbuh).

Very well. By your words Faith is NOT a religion. Religion was written by man, and Jesus Christ (pbuh) endorses the religion of Islam, JW, Mormons, Liberal Christians... and even the many atheists who might simply be lost sheep... but a sheep nevertheless. As for the wolves and the goats... it seems they did come in sheeps clothing, didn't they.

Its like trying to describe a symphony to a deaf person.. sorry.

Quahom1 · 11-05-2006, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Then I advise a careful review of Matthew 25:31-46 so that one knows positively what His sheep are... as defined and stated by Jesus Christ (pbuh).

Very well. By your words Faith is NOT a religion. Religion was written by man, and Jesus Christ (pbuh) endorses the religion of Islam, JW, Mormons, Liberal Christians... and even the many atheists who might simply be lost sheep... but a sheep nevertheless. As for the wolves and the goats... it seems they did come in sheeps clothing, didn't they.

I would advise a careful review of Matthew in his entirety. I know exactly who Jesus' known sheep were, and who the others not of His flock were. They were the ones who knew Jesus, were outside of the sheep pen gates, and were watching those sheep of His flock as they entered the gate, so they too would know how to get in...they were just waiting for Jesus to call to them, so they too would know His voice.

The sheep you are talking about, I suspect are the same as the wayward sheep, who would not come when Jesus called. So Jesus left the flock in search of that wayward sheep, found him, then "Broke his legs" , put the hobbled wayward sheep around His shoulders and carried him back to the flock. Then Jesus kept that injured sheep on His shoulders while the legs healed, and the sheep became used to the scent and voice of Jesus the shepard. Once the legs were healed, that particular sheep never left the shepard's side again.

Oh, I got the story from Jesus, as He specifically told us in the Bible.

Jesus endorsed no religion but the caring for orphans and widows (what He meant was to religiously take care of the infirmed and incapable).

Blessed it the wayward sheep, whom Jesus actively searches for. That is a lucky soul indeed.

v/r

Joshua

edit: by the bye, for those who think sheep are beneath man to be called such, male sheep (called Rams), when ferral are so dangerous, even wild cats think twice about taking them on. A Ram, can kill a man with one charge. And you thought sheep were timid...lol

E99 · 11-05-2006, 09:48 PM

Hi Quahom...long time no see...

Your quote: (Regarding my post no.6)

This is of course your opinion. There are those who have spent their lives studying the Bible and they disagree with you, as do the greater majority (95% +) of those professing to be Christian in faith.

A little out of date with my reply Quahom, been busy, but, The ‘majority’ may have their opinion due to their upbringing...imposed theological slant, But my view and study of God in my post is not only my opinion, but one shared by upwards to 10 million others in my own religion, plus anti trinitarian adherents of other faiths, Unitarian church, Mormons etc; and more prolifically anti trinitarian masses of the proponents of Islam, who likewise would agree with me regarding the singular God aspect.

Jehovahs witnesses may disagree with some views of Islam, but at times; and on this important matter we agree......Muslims have the commonsense to see that Jesus is not God and that there is no triune mysterious being in the singular God. I’m sure that they would see the futility of trying to impose a triune God into the word Elohim by looking at the truth of Gods inspired original languages of the scriptures.

I think the mass of anti trinitarians within Islam would even the view on things out a bit. I’m sure. But, saying this, I don’t agree with your original implication that the majority makes something right. This is a baseless argument to say that the quantity of those that believe what one says over-rules the quality of an assumed truth. After all, the Millions of Romans, Jews, Gentiles and the whole populace of nearly all of the world at the time of Jesus would not have agreed with what Jesus was saying, (or we could use the words of Paul,) but surely you would agree that the words of Jesus or Paul would have been more powerful than the enormous quantity of those that disagreed with them.

Minority....This is the common argument used against those that accuse the minority groups of Christian faiths as being cults when many mainstream ’Christians’ use the word cult cunningly, knowingly using it as an underlying insult. Jesus and his followers were once in the minority, and similarly recognised as a cult, it didn’t make them wrong.

I think that we are like one lemming running amongst many other lemmings which are about to throw themselves off a cliff, but with a little insight we can stop following the masses and maybe our life could be saved by knowing the truth. The majority doesn’t make a thing right. In essence, in this day and age we are like lemmings motioning on to our own destruction. Thankfully, God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth Rev 11:18. I hope and trust that I won’t be running with the majority, the other lemmings. Matthew 7:13

Its all very well talking of self righteous majority view, but there doesn’t seem to be a substantial differing view regarding the meaning of Elohim in this debate by using the material of quote: ‘Those who have spent their lives studying the bible’ The discussion I thought was about an in-depth study of the word Elohim and YHWH. So please discuss. I know that there are some good countering arguments to be found.....It might help some; and I also to get an understanding of where the three are incorporated into the one Elohim; and I might become a trinitarian again.

cyberpi · 11-05-2006, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I know exactly who Jesus' known sheep were, and who the others not of His flock were.

You think so? You have the eyes of Jesus (pbuh) or of God?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The sheep you are talking about, I suspect are the same as the wayward sheep, who would not come when Jesus called. So Jesus left the flock in search of that wayward sheep, found him, then "Broke his legs" , put the hobbled wayward sheep around His shoulders and carried him back to the flock. Then Jesus kept that injured sheep on His shoulders while the legs healed, and the sheep became used to the scent and voice of Jesus the shepard. Once the legs were healed, that particular sheep never left the shepard's side again.

So Jesus (pbuh) has been parabled as a Mafia gangster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Oh, I got the story from Jesus, as He specifically told us in the Bible.

I submit your story is not from Jesus, and it is not in the bible. Where did you get it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered ALL NATIONS: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand; but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say to them on his right hand, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was hungered and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came unto me.

Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry, and fed you? Or thirsty, and gave you drink? When did we see you as a stranger, and took you in? Or naked, and clothed you? Or when did we see you sick, or in prison, and came unto you?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say to you, In as much as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me.

Then will he say to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was hungry, and you gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to you?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, In as much as you did it NOT to one of the least of these, you did NOT do it to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Quahom1 · 11-05-2006, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E99

Hi Quahom...long time no see...

Your quote: (Regarding my post no.6)

This is of course your opinion. There are those who have spent their lives studying the Bible and they disagree with you, as do the greater majority (95% +) of those professing to be Christian in faith.

A little out of date with my reply Quahom, been busy, but, The ‘majority’ may have their opinion due to their upbringing...imposed theological slant, But my view and study of God in my post is not only my opinion, but one shared by upwards to 10 million others in my own religion, plus anti trinitarian adherents of other faiths, Unitarian church, Mormons etc; and more prolifically anti trinitarian masses of the proponents of Islam, who likewise would agree with me regarding the singular God aspect.

Jehovahs witnesses may disagree with some views of Islam, but at times; and on this important matter we agree......Muslims have the commonsense to see that Jesus is not God and that there is no triune mysterious being in the singular God. I’m sure that they would see the futility of trying to impose a triune God into the word Elohim by looking at the truth of Gods inspired original languages of the scriptures.

I think the mass of anti trinitarians within Islam would even the view on things out a bit. I’m sure. But, saying this, I don’t agree with your original implication that the majority makes something right. This is a baseless argument to say that the quantity of those that believe what one says over-rules the quality of an assumed truth. After all, the Millions of Romans, Jews, Gentiles and the whole populace of nearly all of the world at the time of Jesus would not have agreed with what Jesus was saying, (or we could use the words of Paul,) but surely you would agree that the words of Jesus or Paul would have been more powerful than the enormous quantity of those that disagreed with them.

Minority....This is the common argument used against those that accuse the minority groups of Christian faiths as being cults when many mainstream ’Christians’ use the word cult cunningly, knowingly using it as an underlying insult. Jesus and his followers were once in the minority, and similarly recognised as a cult, it didn’t make them wrong.

I think that we are like one lemming running amongst many other lemmings which are about to throw themselves off a cliff, but with a little insight we can stop following the masses and maybe our life could be saved by knowing the truth. The majority doesn’t make a thing right. In essence, in this day and age we are like lemmings motioning on to our own destruction. Thankfully, God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth Rev 11:18. I hope and trust that I won’t be running with the majority, the other lemmings. Matthew 7:13

Its all very well talking of self righteous majority view, but there doesn’t seem to be a substantial differing view regarding the meaning of Elohim in this debate by using the material of quote: ‘Those who have spent their lives studying the bible’ The discussion I thought was about an in-depth study of the word Elohim and YHWH. So please discuss. I know that there are some good countering arguments to be found.....It might help some; and I also to get an understanding of where the three are incorporated into the one Elohim; and I might become a trinitarian again.

You know, E99, everything would have been fine...until you mentioned Islam as part as of an agreeing "cohort" to your own faith...so, by your own precepts you are not Christian?... (rhetorical question).

There is no doubt that you have a strong faith in God. Just like there is no doubt that Muslims believe in God.

doesn't mean they or you are the same as Mainstream "Christianity", nor does it mean you and your 10,000,000 have the corner marketed on Jesus and Christianity.

I suspect you'll have to come up with something else.

Oh, and Jehovah's Witnesses only number 6,000,000 world wide, not ten million. Main stream Christians number over 2,000,000,000. (2.3 Bil, to be more specific).

v/r

Joshua

I will now suggest that cult "Christian sects" be given their own place here on CR.

Faithfulservant · 11-05-2006, 11:47 PM

such hostility.. some advice for you ...when I start taking it personally I take a break.

You really need to read the bible as a whole and not develop doctrines from bits and pieces... Jesus clearly states that He is the only way to the Father in heaven.. He is seperating the sheep from the goats in this scripture.. (I have posted who He claims His sheep are )during the white throne judgement when ALL are judged according to their works...the difference with the goats is that they are not in the Lambs book of Life. It is not possible for any of us to be righteous by our own works...... its the righteousness of Christ that makes those sheep righteous. How do you receive the righteousness of Christ??? by accepting Him in FAITH. We are SAVED by His GRACE through our own FAITH.

cyberpi · 11-06-2006, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

...the difference with the goats is that they are not in the Lambs book of Life.

The book of Life: If a person wears flesh, moves particles, and has a soul then the person is an author in this book of life. Anything a person can see with their eyes is in this book of life. Life here is a book... there are multiple authors and multiple pages but anyone and everyone with a soul is writing in this book. The book is the size of the world and the length of its interaction. It encompasses everything physical. I kid you not. Potential energy here is an unwritten page and what comes out is the written page. In perfect, exact, precise detail. I think the majority of the written pages have left the planet as longwave radiation, but they are still there. I'm not guessing beyond that as to who is authoring what, but I am stating what the book of life is. If you see a person then you see someone in this book of Life. People are authors of their life here... and nothing has been lost.

My understanding, guided or misguided.

Faithfulservant · 11-06-2006, 02:43 AM

there are two books. The book of life.. everyone alive has their name in that book... and the Lambs book of life.

rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

rev 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

We know that there are more than 1 book in the end because it says

rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.