a study in the understanding yhwh & elohim

[bananabrain]

q - i saw a discussion about biblical hebrew terminology and couldn't resist...

At Genesis 1:1 the title "God" is translated from ’Elo·him´, which is plural in Hebrew.

i know that. did you think the commentators aren't aware of that? the verb is in the singular, which is the important bit. the only time you see "elohim" with a plural is when the people ask aaron to make "gods" for them (the golden calf) in exodus. then the verb is in the plural, indicating that this is not G!D but idolatry.

Trinitarians construe this to be an indication of the Trinity. They also explain Deuteronomy 6:4 to imply the unity of members of the Trinity when it says, "The LORD our God [from ’Elo·him´] is one LORD."

i know what they construe. they also take every mention of wood or trees in the Torah to be an indication of the cross. you might as well say every mention of cows is an indication of latent hinduism and it would be just as tenuous.

The plural form of the noun here in Hebrew is the plural of majesty or excellence. (See NAB, St. Joseph Edition, Bible Dictionary, p. 330; also, New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. V, p. 287.) It conveys no thought of plurality of persons within a godhead.

that's what *i'm* saying. and in any case, why would i need catholics to tell me this?

In similar fashion, at Judges 16:23 when reference is made to the false god Dagon, a form of the title ’elo·him´ is used; the accompanying verb is singular, showing that reference is to just the one god.

yes, but that is a direct statement by the philistines, so obviously they would use the singular, because it's them talking about their own singular god, so that proves nothing.

At Genesis 42:30, Joseph is spoken of as the "lord" (’adho·neh´, the plural of excellence) of Egypt.

that may well be a formal use of the "royal we" - after all, joseph is representing a monarch, pharaoh, acting as his plenipotentiary, with royal power; perhaps this is an indication of that? besides, we have already seen that "adoni" means "sir" when it is written out, as opposed to when it is read out as "ADoNaI" in place of the Tetragrammaton. more to the point, the verb "he spoke", referring to joseph, is in the singular - "DiBeR". if it had been plural, it would have been "DaBRU". in any case, i don't get the point you're making.

Chumash with Rashi - Berei**** - Parshah

The Greek language does not have a ‘plural of majesty or excellence.’ So, at Genesis 1:1 the translators of LXX used ho The·os´ (God, singular) as the equivalent of ’Elo·him´. At Mark 12:29, where a reply of Jesus is reproduced in which he quoted Deuteronomy 6:4, the Greek singular ho The·os´ is similarly used.

but what have greek translation problems got to do with me? or mark 12:29, for that matter? it's not my problem if the septuagint is wrong. i am interested in what is said in the hebrew original.

At Deuteronomy 6:4, the Hebrew text contains the Tetragrammaton twice, and so should more properly read: "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."

there's no "more properly" about it. this phrase can be read a number of ways. for example, kaplan's translation reads "HaShem Is our G!D, HaShem alone."

Originally Posted by inhumility

The Jews, the Muslims, the Sikhs and the Zoroastrians understand G!D is one

as far as i am aware , the zoroastrians believe in two powers, one of good, "ormuz" and one of evil, "ahriman". this religion was known to us, being a persian religion originally. it also influenced the gnostic heresy of the "demiurge" as creator of the [therefore] evil world, so i don't think this is right.

Originally Posted by E99

Do you contest the original language and words used are the words of God, or do you see that the words are purely from a man's point of view?

i believe in Torah me-sinai and Torah min-ha-shamayim, Torah from G!D, revealed at sinai. i don't believe it was a creation of humans. my study and experience of the Text and the system derived from it has convinced me that it constitutes evidence of a superhuman intelligence. the fact of jewish survival against all the odds, jewish reality as lived every day and my own inner experience of spirituality has forced me to conclude that the Intelligence behind the Torah is none other than that of the Divine.

Are you quoting the ‘documentary theory, that there are several writers of Genesis “J” (Jahwist), “E” (Elohist), and “P” (Priest Codex) ? (Which can be contested.)

that is correct. i reject the documentary theory on various bases, not the least the fact that none of the supposed accounts from which the Torah was supposedly, G!D forbid, compiled, has been discovered - the reason for this being that they never existed outside the minds of the C19th so-called "higher critics".

Please quote some of the scriptures that use the J/Y and E names in Genesis and the J/E combination scriptures. If the E-name is always 100% used for reference to ‘stern justice‘, why is the E name used at Genesis 1:1, where it speaks specifically about the creative power of Jehovah God ? (Although the documentary theory puts this down to the P writer.)

it's not as simple as 'speaking specifically about creative power'; verse 1:1 uses "E", because, to quote rashi: "in the beginning it was G!D's Intention to Create it with the Divine Standard of Justice, but G!D Perceived that the world would not endure;" therefore this sentence can be more properly read "in the beginning of G!D's Creation of the heavens and the earth", because it refers to G!D's intention, not a completed action. later on, in 2:4, (considered by scholars, therefore, to be from another writer) it refers to Creation as already created, hence it says: "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that Y-E Made earth and heaven." as rashi says in reference to 2:4, "[Y] is G!D's Name. [E means] that G!D Is the Ruler and Judge over the entire world, and so is this defined everywhere according to its simple meaning: Y-E, Who is Ruler and Judge ". so rashi says in his commentary on 1:1, referring to the eventual state of affairs, "so G!D preceded [the E-name] with the Divine Standard of Mercy, [consequently] allying it with the Divine Standard of Justice, and that is the reason it is written:“on the day [Y-E] Made earth and heaven.”

a couple of other good examples: verse 8:21, where the Y-Name is used:

"And [Y] smelled the pleasant aroma, and the [Y] Said in [Y]'s heart, "I will no longer curse the earth because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will no longer smite all living things as I have done."

it should be obvious that this is an example of a merciful statement, referring to the end of the flood and 6:12-3, where G!D Decides to kick the whole sorry business off, where obviously the E-name of strict judgement is being used:

"Now the earth was corrupt before [E], and the earth became full of robbery. And [E] saw the earth, and behold it had become corrupted, for all flesh had corrupted its way on the earth."

noah is the only person on whom G!D has mercy, as we see in 6:22: "And Noah did all that [Y] had commanded him; thus he did" as well as 8:1: "And [E] remembered Noah and every living thing and all the cattle that was with him in the ark", where they have all been strictly judged - and found to be blameless in their generation. hope these examples are sufficient.

you may also find this page useful:

Questions and Concepts for Parsha Berei****

as it gives some sense of the sequencing of the use of the different Names.

but the usage of false gods, in which Dagon is one, is used as Elohim at Exodus 12:12 (Alei.... Elohim of.) Elohim can be transliterated and recognised to mean false gods.

exodus 12:12 is "I will pass through the land of Egypt on this night, and I will smite every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast, and upon all the [elohei] of Egypt will I wreak judgments - I, [Y]." "Elohim" does not appear in this verse, although the word meaning "gods" does, referring to the false gods of egypt - ie, it's in the possessive, referring to the egyptians, because it is the egyptians' opinion that these are gods. you'd do better to ask why it says "I - [Y]" at the end, just after G!D passes what is evidently a piece of stern judgement! this, fortunately, is explained elsewhere:

Parashat Kedoshim: The Basis for the Moral Society - Torah.org

where we can understand that every time you see something, either an action or a commandment, concluded with the phrase: "I Am [Y]", it refers to the phrase "you shall be holy, just like I, G!D, Am Holy".

The Phrase “Ani Yahweh Eloheihem”

where are you quoting this phrase from? are you sure you aren't mistransliterating "Ani [Y] Eloheikhem" (I Am Y *your* G!D)?

The root word might be the same... El, but as a good dictionary will show you, “Allah” is a shortened form of the Arabic term meaning “the god.”

oh, i wasn't clear - you know how semitic root-structures, work, right? "al-LaH" does indeed mean "The G!D" (which is, of course not at all theologically problematic for me, because muslims are very clearly monotheists) but the root of it is the L-H bit, the first A-L bit being merely the definite article, as you have noticed. nonetheless, it is the same cognate two-letter root as the Lo-H root of "ELoHIM". blimey, it's hard to do this when everyone's transliterating differently.

But “Allah” corresponds, in Hebrew, to ´Elo·him´, the plural of majesty of the word ´eloh´ah (god). Not a name.

ahem - it's still a name, even if it denotes a concept. leastways, that's the way we see it. the word "God" in english is also a name, as well as a concept.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

q - i saw a discussion about biblical hebrew terminology and couldn't resist...

Be our guest...

[Marietta]

Hello BLAZNFATTYZ, The Hebrew word ELohim, ahleph, lahmed, hey, yud, mem; is a plural form and to make it mean God you have to take away the last three letters. El; ahleph, lahmed is the Hebrew word for God, Ehoh, ahleph, lahmed, hey; is the Hebrew word for Goddess and the yud mem is the plural ending, making it Goddesses. It is like men and women. The female energy holds a balanced of both the masculine and the feminine energy. God (Source) is without polarity (gender) holding everything in perfect balance.

The tetragrammation (which means four letters) is an abbreviation of the 72 letter vibrational ton that is the energy signature (name) of Source (God if you chose). It is said that if man were to learn this Vibrational Ton and speak it the world would cease to exist (as we know it).

Nothing exists outside of Source (God) and everything that exists is part of Source (God). Source (God) is all that is. This is the oneness of God. We are all sparks of God experiencing the thoughts of God.

The Hebrew word for salvation and/or deliverance is Yud, shin, ayin: Yusha the ayin is a strong gutteral sound made in the throat and usually transliterated as an A.

The Hebrew word Shua; shin, vav, ahleph means: lie, falsehood, nothingness, vanity, worthlessness, rising, elation:
The Hebrew word Shuah: shin, vav, ahleph, hey means: devastation, ruin, destruction:
The Hebrew word: Shyah; shin, yud, hey; means: she-lamb
The Hebrew word Shui: shin, vav, ayin (pronounced in the throat) means: to cry out for help.

Just my two cents worth.
Love and Light, Marietta

[Thomas]

Hi Marietta -

I think you'll find yourself running into some serious opposition in the Christian forums - safer on the Liberal Christian.

For example:
"Nothing exists outside of Source (God) and everything that exists is part of Source (God). Source (God) is all that is. This is the oneness of God. We are all sparks of God experiencing the thoughts of God."

well for one Scripture does not say this...

... and I would say, if we are all god experiencing his own thoughts, then why suffering, why evil? Is God evil, sadistic, stupid, drunk or deranged? Why cannot a God have thoughts that do not involve the pain and suffering?

Thomas

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Marietta

Hello BLAZNFATTYZ, The Hebrew word ELohim, ahleph, lahmed, hey, yud, mem; is a plural form and to make it mean God you have to take away the last three letters. El; ahleph, lahmed is the Hebrew word for God, Ehoh, ahleph, lahmed, hey; is the Hebrew word for Goddess and the yud mem is the plural ending, making it Goddesses. It is like men and women. The female energy holds a balanced of both the masculine and the feminine energy. God (Source) is without polarity (gender) holding everything in perfect balance.

The tetragrammation (which means four letters) is an abbreviation of the 72 letter vibrational ton that is the energy signature (name) of Source (God if you chose). It is said that if man were to learn this Vibrational Ton and speak it the world would cease to exist (as we know it).

Nothing exists outside of Source (God) and everything that exists is part of Source (God). Source (God) is all that is. This is the oneness of God. We are all sparks of God experiencing the thoughts of God.

The Hebrew word for salvation and/or deliverance is Yud, shin, ayin: Yusha the ayin is a strong gutteral sound made in the throat and usually transliterated as an A.

The Hebrew word Shua; shin, vav, ahleph means: lie, falsehood, nothingness, vanity, worthlessness, rising, elation:
The Hebrew word Shuah: shin, vav, ahleph, hey means: devastation, ruin, destruction:
The Hebrew word: Shyah; shin, yud, hey; means: she-lamb
The Hebrew word Shui: shin, vav, ayin (pronounced in the throat) means: to cry out for help.

Just my two cents worth.
Love and Light, Marietta

[Marietta]

Greetings Thomas, Thank you for the reply.

Nothing exists outside of god. God is all that truly exists and is in all things.

1Corinthians 3:16: Do you not know that you are a timple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Literal Greek translation:
1Corinthians 3:16
16. dont recognize that temple Theou exists and the life spirit the Theou dwells within you

Literal Greek translation:
1Corinthians 6:15: don't know that your bodies are members of Kristou existence, anchor the members the Kristos making harlot member not being produced

Literal Greek translation:
Ephesians 4:3-5: 3. be eager to protect the oneness of the life spirit within the bond of peace
4. one body and one and the same life spirit in this way therefore invited within one and the same prospect the invitation you
5. one and the same lord alone trust one baptism

Ephesians 5:29 After all, no-one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church--:30 for we are 'MAMBERS' OF HIS BODY.

Literal Greek:

Colossians 1:15-18 15.

which is the substance the Theou the invisible firstborn of all the universe
16. that within him created everything within the universe and on the earth the visible and the nvisible whether throne, whether dominion, wether first, wether right the supreme through himf and in him created
17. and he existed before anything and all things within him have existence
18. and he is the head of the body the assembly which is first existing before away from the dead so that became within fullness itself being first

Literal Greek:

Ephesians 5:29-30:

29, nobody surely at any time when the flesh hate yet feed and tenderly care for it so that therefore Kristos the assembly 30. that part (limb) is the body itself

Isaiah 45:7:

I am the Lord, and there is no other. The one forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.

No God is not evil but God does allow all of creation to experience whatever it is that is needed for the individual's personal growth.

Love and Light, Marietta

[Thomas]

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:1 et seq

It is evident from this verse, the whole of Scripture, and every teaching of the Jews, the Christians and the Moslems that:

God is the Creator of all that is, therefore
all that is, is created;

God is not created, therefore
all that is, is not God.

That God is in all that there is, that all that is exists and subsists by the Will of God, is a sign of God's love, and is not a virtue for man to claim as his own, but is a grace, and given ... but man is free, and metaphysically the only 'real' freedom is to accept Divine Grace, or reject it.

No God is not evil but God does allow all of creation to experience whatever it is that is needed for the individual's personal growth.

I am sorry, but I recoil at this kind of thinking - I hesitate to list just a few of the most disgusting and despicable acts perpetrated upon the innocent that shout out from our daily papers, and I would suggest that any 'god' who can think of no other means than to let, for example, children suffer in such extreme and perverse fashion is not worthy of the title 'god' and is itself perverse.

30,000 children a day in Africa - do that all need the same lesson? 30,000 a day?

Or the one baby, snatched, violated and murdered - what benefit does that dead child derive from the experience that can count towards 'personbal growth'?

I am sorry if my words appear harsh, but really this kind of thinking is an offence against the God of Scripture.

Hosea 11:1-9:
When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt ... I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them... I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them... And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt [him] ... How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? [how] shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? [how] shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together. I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Thomas

[bananabrain]

oh, thomas, thomas. read isaiah 45:7:

"I Form light and Create Darkness, Make peace and Create evil; I Am G!D, Who Does all these things."

God is the Creator of all that is, therefore
all that is, is created;

God is not created, therefore
all that is, is not God.

this logic is really flawed - it suggests a separation between G!D and the Created universe, which is actually the gnostic heresy of the "demiurge", or the manichean heresy, whichever you prefer. either way jews don't go for it - either G!D Is One and All or that isn't G!D we're talking about.

without the existence of evil, there is no possibility of choosing good, because we wouldn't know the difference. that's eden, not life.

btw: wouldn't worry too much about marietta's translations if i were you!

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Thomas]

Hi bananabrain -

this logic is really flawed ... either way jews don't go for it - either G!D Is One and All or that isn't G!D we're talking about.

Really? Are you saying Judaism is pantheist?

without the existence of evil, there is no possibility of choosing good, because we wouldn't know the difference. that's eden, not life.

Man chose evil, that's my point.

Pax,

Thomas

[Marietta]

Greetings Thomas, Thank you for your response.

>>You responded:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:1 et seqIt is evident from this verse, the whole of Scripture, and every teaching of the Jews, the Christians and the Moslems that:God is the Creator of all that is, therefore
all that is, is created; God is not created, therefore
all that is, is not God<<<.

I don't follow the logic that if someone creates something they were not created and all that is, is not part of that source? If I were to cut of my hair and make a wig out of that hair, I am the creator of the wig and the wig is a part of me. Is it not? I can dig a whole in my yard, fill it with cement add water and create a swimming pool. Then I can take a bucket and dip out some of the water and then pore that water into other smaller vessels. All of the water in the vessels came from the same source and are of the same essence of that source. We can take it all the way back to the ocean from which all water on this earth comes from.

Indeed, in the beginning God created the heavens and earth (our solar system). Who are these Gods that Genesis says created our firmament and our earth (our solar system)? Are the Elohim who created our heavens and earth the Source of All that exists? These beings are only the creators of this reality field that we are presently taking part within. Source is much bigger than this small portion of reality that we occupy. There are countless other time matrices out there and we only experience the lowest frequency of our own time matrix.

You responded:That God is in all that there is, that all that is exists and subsists by the Will of God, is a sign of God's love, and is not a virtue for man to claim as his own, but is a grace, and given ... but man is free, and metaphysically the only 'real' freedom is to accept Divine Grace, or reject it.

Where do you get the idea that Source's love is not a virtue for man to claim? As long as you think like that you will never experience Divine Love for yourself. We are all expressions of God and this love was imbedded within us at creation, because we are all made from the essence of Source. Nothing exists but Source and to say differently is saying that there was an external existence out of which Source created this existence we call reality.

Webster: grace; The quality or state of being considerate


I had written:
I had written: No God is not evil but God does allow all of creation to experience whatever it is that is needed for the individual's personal growth.

You replied:
I am sorry, but I recoil at this kind of thinking - I hesitate to list just a few of the most disgusting and despicable acts perpetrated upon the innocent that shout out from our daily papers, and I would suggest that any 'god' who can think of no other means than to let, for example, children suffer in such extreme and perverse fashion is not worthy of the title 'god' and is itself perverse.

These things are happening for a number of reasons. One is due to Karma from past life experiences. We each chose the life situations we will enter before we birth into this body. However the major reason things on this planet are taking place is due to the fact that the Fallen ones have taken our Freewill away and caused situations in which they can take our power away as a means of manipulation and control.


You wrote:
I am sorry if my words appear harsh, but really this kind of thinking is an offence against the God of Scripture.

My reply: What have I stated that is an offense against God? To say that God created us with free will and gave us a set of divine laws to follow that were/are pure and holy is not stating that God did anything bad. It was mankind and fallen angels who took these laws and used them to control and manipulate one another. Taking the free will choices away from each other inadvertently taking each others divinely given powers away.

You have stated that if God using his thoughts created mankind with free will, this some how is an offence against God. Please explain this logic to me.

Love and Light, Marietta

[Marietta]

Greetings bananabrain,

You wrote:btw: wouldn't worry too much about marietta's translations if i were you!

Please explain where you have difficulty with my translation?

Love and Light, Marietta

[BlaznFattyz]

god always existed, god creates things, god is life, god is uncorruptible, god sees and knows all things.

created things have a beginning, things were created by god, things have an end, things are corruptible, things are limited to the abilities god has given.

you can see the love, commands, workmanship, beauty, wisdom, and awesomeness of god in things, but no creation is above god, nor can we create anything unless that power was given to us by god.

the only thing that connects god with his created things is spirituality and doing things for the glory of god.

[mee]

Jehovah (he causes to become)

[Marietta]

Hello BLAZNFATTYZ,
Science knows that all that exists is energy and energy is conscious and energy does not die, it merely transforms from one state to another. We are eternal life spirits/energy fields of consciousness manifest in a 3D form. The dimensional forms that the consciousness embodies into has a beginning but does not need to have an ending.
We are in agreement that there is not creation above Source.


You wrote:
the only thing that connects god with his created things is spirituality and doing things for the glory of god.

My reply:
This kind of thought was put into religion to take your God given personal power away from you.

Love and Light, Marietta

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Marietta

Hello BLAZNFATTYZ,
Science knows that all that exists is energy and energy is conscious and energy does not die, it merely transforms from one state to another. We are eternal life spirits/energy fields of consciousness manifest in a 3D form. The dimensional forms that the consciousness embodies into has a beginning but does not need to have an ending.
We are in agreement that there is not creation above Source.


You wrote:
the only thing that connects god with his created things is spirituality and doing things for the glory of god.

My reply:
This kind of thought was put into religion to take your God given personal power away from you.

Love and Light, Marietta

Science exists because of God to begin with...I think that is the message being missed.