A Word Whose Time Has Come To An End

lunamoth · 10-26-2006, 07:50 PM

I’ve had opportunity to reflect on the word heretic these past few days, instigated by my reading of JS Spong’s book A New Christianity for A New Day. For his boldly stated liberal views Spong tells us that he has been labeled as a heretic by some, most notably by members of the clergy. In addition to being called a heretic, he was called the Anti-Christ, a hypocrite, and even received death threats. Oh, the fear illuminated by that response! It’s hard to not see it as an illustration of how desperately the world is in need of Spong’s message of freedom from a punishing and power-hungry literalism in our religions.

But what to do with the words heresy and heretic? On the one hand I value the tradition that has been handed down over the past two millennia. Intuitively it seems that the tradition which connects me to the experience of those who witnessed God’s love manifest in the Person of Christ could only have been retained by vigilant attention to maintaining what they believed that experience was and what it meant to them. On the other hand, those who have endeavored to find meaning in the Christ-experience for themselves have always risked being labeled as heretics and punished. How could cutting off and punishing someone for the sake of unity ever be reconciled with agape, God’s unconditional love?

When I think of the violence, oppression, and atrocities that have taken place in the name of God I am ready to join the ranks of those who wish to eradicate all religion from the face of the earth. How could we be such hypocrites? It’s hard to not see this as anything but mean fear, greed, and power-mongering. It exhibits a profound lack of faith in God to think that we must marginalize, persecute and demonize those who think differently from us regarding this ultimate human experience, of realizing and trying to celebrate the extraordinary experience of loving and being in this amazing universe. We try to actualize the great unity we sense and long for by drawing lines in the sand and saying ‘cross this and you are apart from me.’ We judge and divide in our attempt to unify. ‘The world will have peace as soon as everyone else accepts our view of how things should be.’

I would suggest that we have the answer to religious conflict in the Gospel already, and in that saying we hear so often that it has become cliché: if you love something you must let it go. If you wish to save your life you must lose it. There is a way to unity but somehow we have to find a way to let the horse lead the cart. Unity will follow love, but only if we keep our hearts and minds focused on love, rather than on unity.

12Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

I see no room for the idea of heresy or heretics in the Gospel and I think it’s time that we as Christians follow Jesus in His example of love and healing. These words of division, heresy and heretic, are sin and we must cut them from our lexicon. We must have faith, we must trust, that if the love of God we claim as the source of our life and being is true, then no differences of opinion can ever harm the Body of Christ. If what we build is based on love our evangelism will be evident in our lives without words. What is true will endure.

luna

juantoo3 · 10-26-2006, 08:42 PM

Kindest Regards, Luna!

Awesome post!

Still haven't read Spong, from what I've heard I'm in no hurry either. Even so, I think there is plenty of room for different viewpoints. In process, perhaps some of us hold greater or lesser degrees of truth (if truth be defined as ultimate reality), but I have long held that the institutions that preserve our Christian traditions have wandered away from the path originally given. Enough so that I really do think that if Jesus were to walk among us today, He too would be branded an heretic.

That said, there is a minor subgroup in the world whose purpose it seems is to subvert G-d and any attempt to reach towards Him. It is these that could rightly be said to be heretical, in the spirit of anti-Christ.

As long as the world feels a need to distinguish between "us" and "them," words like "heretic" will be misused. And as long as there exists among us those who would subvert our efforts to rejoin with our Creator and Source, words like "heretic" will still be required.

My two cents, speaking as a hairy tick.

wil · 10-26-2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

...Still haven't read Spong, from what I've heard I'm in no hurry either...

I've read some excerpts, and while he is on my list to get to his books haven't gotten as far as to have been purchased and put in the stack or the queue yet...

Seek first to understand then to be understood ~ Covey.

I think all of us liberals are do regularly for a dose of that old-time religion. I now enjoy attending other churches and hearing a variety of sermons, it doesn't always resonate 100% but I get a deeper understanding of what it means to folks for whom it does. On the flip side, Spong might just be what should be required reading for some...just to get a flavor of what thoughts are floating around out there.

At our church we are having a DaVinci Code discussion group. And it isn't really on the DaVinci Code, but on the thoughts, questions, issues that were stirred up by watching it. Nothing is sacred in this discussion, got a question ask it, got a thought put it out there, no one will shut you down for having a thought in this group. I think that allows growth and deeper understanding, builds a strong foundation of ones spirituality.

If something is said that is so upsetting to start washing the sand out from under ones rock or pulls the carpet out from ones feet...I think it isn't the words or the concept that is the problem.

I don't see the end of the words herecy or blasphemy...I actually see a benefit when someone says I am, it clearly allows me to understand where one is coming from.

Dor · 10-26-2006, 09:33 PM

Ok here I go. Opening myself up.

Well as far as Unity goes it is very simple.
The answer lies in the Bible itself. In order for true unity to exist, men must lay down their teachings, doctrines, names, churches, creeds, books, etc. They must pick up the Bible, read and study it, believe it, and obey it. Then there can be genuine unity, the kind the Lord prayed for in John 17. When men do this, they will all believe the same thing. All will obey the same teachings. All will wear the same name. All will work together. All will teach the same thing. All will go to heaven together. It will be easy for unity to exist when men quit following men and begin to follow Christ.

The Bible never mentions world unity....world unity will occur only after Christ returns. The unity taught in the Bible was for believers.

The Bible says God hates those who sow division or discord among the brethren (Proverbs 6:19). Anyone who teaches things against the Bible falls in that category for me. Therefore I have as much desire to read Sponge as I do to read The Watchtower.

Just my backwards arse fundamentalist 2cp.

wil · 10-26-2006, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Ok here I go. Opening myself up... Anyone who teaches things against the Bible falls in that category for me. Therefore I have as much desire to read Sponge as I do to read The Watchtower.

Just my backwards arse fundamentalist 2cp.

I don't believe Spong believes he teaches anything that isn't biblical. For that matter nor does the Watchtower. Just because I don't believe what someone else believes doesn't mean to me that I can't find common ground for discussion. Doesn't mean that I can't sit and listen and try to understand where they are coming from.

Unity may not be in the bible, but not a century ago people were telling Orville and Wilbur 'If man was meant to fly...' Even in my lifetime I've heard it from people who refuse to get on planes. Growth/evolution in technology and understanding is well understandable...and I don't think will be stopped.

Dor · 10-26-2006, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I don't believe Spong believes he teaches anything that isn't biblical.

One thing before we end up hi-jacking this thread.
He claims "that the Bible is full of contradictions, errors, objectionable passages and repugnant concepts"(RBF)
Does not look like he cares much for the Bible anyway.
I will not bring up what he says about Christ here.

Still stand by only way we will have global unity will be after the Antichrist comes along.
True Global Unity only will come after Jesus returns.

flowperson · 10-27-2006, 12:50 AM

Jesus has always been here in the hearts and minds of those who have believed in Him. Jesus the spiritual force is as real to me as the toast and coffee that I consumed this morning. It is a spiritual food that I feast upon in each moment in order to spiritually get myself to the next day. Jesus is not someone who will magically appear someday and make all the bad stuff go away. I know that's what the words say, but they were written almost two thousand years ago and are alien to me and my life. The march of the centuries and the profound changes within civilizations necessitates evolution and change in such traditional beliefs also.

Now, I agree with lunamoth's original premise that "heresy" and the personal term "heretic" are losing their meaning more and more each day, of necessity. Nothing can be frozen in time, especially the written word, as you seem to wish Dor. While the writings of the Bible point us in certain directions of belief, they do not, and I presume also for Dr. Spong (whom I have not read), require us to literally adhere to each word and sentence or be condemned to lose our souls for eternity. That interpretation is the province of a certain percentage of believers who would rather stay where they are and not encourage or advocate change of any sort. It is my view that endless and continual parsing of words written thousands of years ago will not, in the long run, get our children and grandchildren to where they need to go...the future. However, the words are important as clues to a set of truths concerning life that we are meant to search out and apply to our personal situations.

As the human family expands and becomes more and more diverse, then their understandings of their pasts and their beliefs will also rapidly expand and proliferate. Trying to herd these cats will become increasingly impossible, and their/our search for meaning and belief, even in the traditional forms of religion, will become increasingly harder because of the context within which we are compelled to view the world. Many of the old words and old stories simply are alien to the world that we live in and that our children are entering. Why are so many children required to take anti-psychotics these days? It's likely because the world that they see and must operate in according to existing societal rules simply does not allow them the basic freedom of being what they believe themselves to be.

We are at the very beginnings of some profound evolutional changes that have been going on now for about the last 80 years IMO. And, they are accelerating more each year. This process is causing lots of fear within all ranks of society, and I mean fear aside from that forced upon us by otherwise well-meaning government officials. We can either embrace changes and deal with them based upon realistic scenarios derived from our past traditions and experiences, or we can hide our heads in the sand and ignore them until we and our children are rendered powerless through our inactions and ignorance.

I for one do not take it personally if I am scorned or rejected for my beliefs, as strange as they may seem to others sometimes. I instead recall the trials of Jesus the man and am thereby comforted. I don't even care if I am called a "heretic". As far as I'm concerned, it's a sign of reinforcement that I'm probably doing something right to bring about positive changes for others to follow.

flow....

Dor · 10-27-2006, 01:06 AM

Well sorry the Bible no where on or in it says. Discard after 2000yrs.

You can throw The Bible and Jesus away all you want to. I will not.
Some man or God. Think I will listen to God. I know that makes me rigid, and scared and confused according to alot of people.

Fear not, for I am with you;
Be not dismayed, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you,
Yes, I will help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

I have to say nothing makes me feel any better than to think about how much God must have loved my wretched self to come to Earth and get ridiculed, humiliated and crucified to save me and so many that do not even want it.
Wish everyone could meet him!

China Cat Sunflower · 10-27-2006, 01:43 AM

Splendid Laurie! Are you coming around to Spong's point of view?

Chris

earl · 10-27-2006, 01:45 AM

We make it more complicated than it needs to be as we seem to forget that Jesus purportedly issued few "commandments-" love God & love thy neighbor as thyself was pretty much it. Sum & total of such "edicts."

have a good one, earl

Quahom1 · 10-27-2006, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I’ve had opportunity to reflect on the word heretic these past few days, instigated by my reading of JS Spong’s book A New Christianity for A New Day. For his boldly stated liberal views Spong tells us that he has been labeled as a heretic by some, most notably by members of the clergy. In addition to being called a heretic, he was called the Anti-Christ, a hypocrite, and even received death threats. Oh, the fear illuminated by that response! It’s hard to not see it as an illustration of how desperately the world is in need of Spong’s message of freedom from a punishing and power-hungry literalism in our religions.

But what to do with the words heresy and heretic? On the one hand I value the tradition that has been handed down over the past two millennia. Intuitively it seems that the tradition which connects me to the experience of those who witnessed God’s love manifest in the Person of Christ could only have been retained by vigilant attention to maintaining what they believed that experience was and what it meant to them. On the other hand, those who have endeavored to find meaning in the Christ-experience for themselves have always risked being labeled as heretics and punished. How could cutting off and punishing someone for the sake of unity ever be reconciled with agape, God’s unconditional love?

When I think of the violence, oppression, and atrocities that have taken place in the name of God I am ready to join the ranks of those who wish to eradicate all religion from the face of the earth. How could we be such hypocrites? It’s hard to not see this as anything but mean fear, greed, and power-mongering. It exhibits a profound lack of faith in God to think that we must marginalize, persecute and demonize those who think differently from us regarding this ultimate human experience, of realizing and trying to celebrate the extraordinary experience of loving and being in this amazing universe. We try to actualize the great unity we sense and long for by drawing lines in the sand and saying ‘cross this and you are apart from me.’ We judge and divide in our attempt to unify. ‘The world will have peace as soon as everyone else accepts our view of how things should be.’

I would suggest that we have the answer to religious conflict in the Gospel already, and in that saying we hear so often that it has become cliché: if you love something you must let it go. If you wish to save your life you must lose it. There is a way to unity but somehow we have to find a way to let the horse lead the cart. Unity will follow love, but only if we keep our hearts and minds focused on love, rather than on unity.

12Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

I see no room for the idea of heresy or heretics in the Gospel and I think it’s time that we as Christians follow Jesus in His example of love and healing. These words of division, heresy and heretic, are sin and we must cut them from our lexicon. We must have faith, we must trust, that if the love of God we claim as the source of our life and being is true, then no differences of opinion can ever harm the Body of Christ. If what we build is based on love our evangelism will be evident in our lives without words. What is true will endure.

luna

Besides being a book of stories, lessons learned, traditions, wonderous glory, a guide to gentleness, fair treatment, and a book of hope, the bible is also a book of laws, rules and regulations. With few exceptions (mitigating or extenuating circumstances), there is not much in the way of variation or interpretation on these laws, rules and regulations. And it sets the stage for judging man and his actions. There is a reason for all of this. And that reason is in order for those who God calls His own to act in such a manner that is befitting and brings credit, honor and Glory to God.

Likewise there is another book, that some follow, that is of stories, lessons learned, traditions, wonderous glory, a guide to gentleness, fair treatment, and a book of hope, as well as laws, rules and regulations. With few exceptions (migitating or extenuating circumstances), there is not much in the way of variation or interpretation on these laws, rules and regulation. And it sets the stage for judging personnel and their actions. There is a reason for all of this. And that reason is in order for those who call themselves "servants" to act in such a manner that is befitting and brings credit, honor and glory to those being served...

That book is called the Armed Forces Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Now, if the "military" were to ignore the good UCMJ, because we have to open ourselves up to "interpretation", where do you think the good order of the "chosen" would end up?

There would be no "good order and discipline". Nor would there be a "cohesive" unified force against all enemies, foreign and domestic. A house divided within can not stand.

Christianity and the Bible is exactly the same way. There are specific rules that "Christians" are to uphold. There are no exceptions.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

mee · 10-27-2006, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Ok here I go. Opening myself up.

Well as far as Unity goes it is very simple.
The answer lies in the Bible itself. In order for true unity to exist, men must lay down their teachings, doctrines, names, churches, creeds, books, etc. They must pick up the Bible, read and study it, believe it, and obey it. Then there can be genuine unity, the kind the Lord prayed for in John 17. When men do this, they will all believe the same thing. All will obey the same teachings. All will wear the same name. All will work together. All will teach the same thing. All will go to heaven together. It will be easy for unity to exist when men quit following men and begin to follow Christ.

The Bible never mentions world unity....world unity will occur only after Christ returns. The unity taught in the Bible was for believers.

u

i agree with this ,and it is being acommplished among true followers of christ,on a world wide basis. the only thing that the bible does not teach is the bit about ALL going to heaven. because the bible teaches that only a little flock will be going to heaven . (144,000)
"Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom."—LUKE 12:32.
and there will be other ones that will follow jesus and they will inherit the earth.
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."—JOHN 10:16.these other sheep are not of the fold that will be in heaven . but they still follow the teachings of christ .in fact they will inherit the earth.
Those of the other sheep gathered in the time of the end will make up the "great crowd" destined to survive "the great tribulation," with the prospect of living forever on a paradise earth. revelation 7;9-10
Psalm 37:11;

Dondi · 10-27-2006, 12:27 PM

I fail to see why we need to dismiss something just because it is old. As if antiquity loses its validity over time. We talk about progressive change, but what is it we are changing into? Are we building on the foundations we have already learned? Or are we replacing them with something else?

wil · 10-27-2006, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Now, if the "military" were to ignore the good UCMJ, because we have to open ourselves up to "interpretation", where do you think the good order of the "chosen" would end up?

There would be no "good order and discipline". Nor would there be a "cohesive" unified force against all enemies, foreign and domestic. A house divided within can not stand.

Christianity and the Bible is exactly the same way. There are specific rules that "Christians" are to uphold. There are no exceptions.

Namaste Q, nice analogy but the analogy falls apart in one big way. As new information is revealed and old ways are no longer needed, your UCMJ is updated, on a regular basis.

Dor and mee, my brothers and sisters, the bible is my book, and Jesus is my brother. I have no intention of throwing either one away. They are both in my life daily, my foundational sources for thoughts and life.

But that does not mean I will discount the millions of other Christians who don't think like me, and believe in separation. Nor does it mean I will discount the billions of Muslims, Hindus, Bhuddists, Taoists, etc. And not attempt to strive toward harmony, compassion, understanding and Unity.

The internet is not mentioned in the bible...won't stop me from using it. I am not like the Amish who have picked a date and frozen time, but when it comes to forgiveness, I obviously can learn something from them.

flowperson · 10-27-2006, 11:06 PM

I'm sorry if my post left the impression that I advocate abandoning, ignoring, or discarding the contents of the Bible, including all of the rules, even though it is 3,000 years old.

Perhaps you, Dor, Q, Dondi, et al, just missed the content of what I had to say. What we are discussing is the concept of not calling people heretics or accusing them of heresy just because they choose to interpret scripture in non-traditional ways so that it might serve to be a guide for us into the future. After the work that I have done, I have come to believe that such an approach is becoming more and more necessary with each day that passes.

And, as wil has also pointed out, some of us believe that since we are all rapidly becoming a global community, in at least a secular sense, we'd best be about the business of doing some fresh interpretations of the Bible's content so that more believers of differing faith might partake in the feast that Jesus and the Prophets left for us all.

To not pursue this goal, in my way of thinking and as mentioned above by Earl, is to ignore the greatest teaching left for us in the NT, to love our neighbors as ourselves. To not pursue this goal is inherently an exclusionary action that can only lead to increasing conflict as we have seen in recent years. All I really said was that our current understandings of the Bible's content serves to point the way to new interpretations of its timeless stories in light if the knowledge that we have accumulated in secular societies over the past 3,000 years.

Religion, just as the human societies that it serves, should be a collection of growing and dynamic systems that reflect the truths of natural processes. To deny this aspect of our lives is to ignore the spiritual needs of the future generations, and to perhaps unwittingly begin participating more in the processes of death than the forward-moving processes of life. This certainly seems to be more and more the case to me, at least since the 60's. All I'm really advocating is for us to choose more positive directions for more people.

flow....