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Old 02-12-2012, 03:45 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

"...the "two who fell," again referring to the Kumaras, in this case meaning fell into Generation."

--> There is another interpretation to idea of falling, and it is that the Kumaras (or someone else) needed to supply more help to the flegling human race in those early days but refused to do so, which is one of the key issues mentioned in the Stanzas of Dzyan and The Secret Doctrine. (And the debate rages on as to why they did not provide such badly needed assistance.) But their refusal to give assistance is The Fall, is the true meaning behind the meaning of the Fall of the Devil, and is why Lucifer is despised by so many of the world's religions.

By the way, there were three Falls, and Lucifer's Fall was only one of the three.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:47 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

Thanks for sharing some details of your experiences, Lunitik. The Path of Initiation is one in which there is a Dark Night of the Soul taking place preceding, surrounding and even following upon the 4th Initiation, or `Renunciation.' The Buddha was said to have helped 900 such Arhats pass on through this stage in spiritual evolution.

The result? No more Causal Body. The Soul is Liberated ... and moves on to higher work. At that point, the Monad is directly incarnate via the personality ... a direct link occurs, and this means that the person in question literally incarnates the Divine.

Such beings, arhats or Adepts, are rare. Perhaps we have bumped into without knowing. Perhaps we have been fortunate enough to meet people like this, whether or not we realized just how evolved they are. The coming Buddha, Maitreya Bodhisattva, is called the Buddha of 10,000 Arhats ... suggesting that the number of souls to attain Liberation through his aegis, assistance and influence will be something like 10 times the number that achieved with Shakyamuni Buddha's help. This assumes that we are looking into the future, of course.

So, there are many experiences that we can undergo which could be comparable to the Long Dark Night of the Soul. The Tibetan Master assures us that even when we are certain that this must be what is happening, it is much more likely the 2nd Initiation, since this too can be extremely painful and challenging for some disciples ... especially students on the 2nd Ray, if I recall.

At any rate, there are many dozens of lesser initiations, and we all take these from day to day, or month to month, or year to year. Two significant `probationary' or preparatory initiations are said to precede the Birth, or first true Initiation. The Tibetan also reminds us, however, that the first SIRIAN Initiation is the 3rd, or Transfiguration [as it is known to Christian esotericists, or the Hamsa (swan), as it is known in the East]. Meeting a 3rd Degree Initiate is less rare ... but many of these do not carry the awareness in the brain consciousness. Rather, the proof of their attainment lies in their work, their character and in certain other indications which we can learn to see (or intuit).

Certainly it is possible to wrongly assess another person - or oneself - along these lines. Thus, we may vastly over-rate our spiritual status, or we may even under-estimate where we actually stand. Better not to obsess at all; better to practice the Dharma, as a good Friend used to tell me.

Anyway, I certainly wish you the best in the Journey ahead. Each new day offers untold Opportunity. Before we know it, we'll be exactly where we need to be ... as indeed, the best way to prepare oneself for Initiation is to forget about it and simply carry out our spiritual (Service-oriented) Responsibility.

This doesn't mean we can't discuss the subject, or talk about how the Path Ideal has been presented in both East and West ... symbolized, illustrated and embodied. That, at least it seems to me, is an inexhaustible topic! We just have to be careful not to deceive ourselves. It is natural to want, to seek and to hope for spiritual Liberation. It is also possible to hypnotize oneself, or to become quite convinced we are liberated ... when in fact, this is quite obviously not the case. Perhaps the best we can do in such situations, is to simply smile ... and offer encouragement.

Other times, we must remain altogether quiet, for while we may not wish to offend, we also must be careful not to add fuel to someone's fire. In this case, since we are discussing the subject frankly and openly, I am going to tread carefully ... but I am also not going to pretend, or join the tea party simply because the mad hatter sometimes amuses me. Therefore, my fellow Pilgrim, let's just agree that we are all quite fortunate to have the opportunities that we have been given.

I dare say, pretty well everyone who posts or stops by at Interfaith.org is on the Spiritual Path. But as for advanced Initiates? MAYBE ... again, who's to say? It certainly isn't you or me, however.

Maybe Nick has a thought or two. I feel quite certain that he has bumped into an old soul here or there (ha!). Some experiences, I realize, are quite personal ... and do not need posting on public forums. Others, especially if details are removed or identities preserved, can be shared. I have no problems whatsoever, for example, mentioning encounters with the Masters ... whether my own, or those of others. I am especially careful in the latter case, and even where I have my own certainties or awareness, I do usually try to tailor what I have to say to the occasion.

Waiving a flag that says, "I am there, I have attained, I am done" however ... THIS really only proves one thing. And indeed, the Emperor does like to air out the wardrobe ... from time to time.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:54 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

The "fall" is the final part, letting go utterly, allowing yourself to be nothingness.

How troublesome it is will depend on how attached you are to the mind, it is only the mind which is 'falling", if you can be detached it is not so bad. I go on saying it is like death because for the mind it will be, and if you are believing yourself to be the mind you are in trouble, you will become so scared you will never go into it again.

This needn't be a long process though, just don't give the mind any attention, allow what is happening to run its course. This is why you have to become utterly desireless though, you will want to wait to accomplish whatever desire you have, you will be very easily distracted, any justification will permit you to come out of it. Once you stop yourself from falling, it is hard to permit it to happen again, you will avoid because now mind is back in control.
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Old 02-12-2012, 03:59 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

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Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot View Post
"...the "two who fell," again referring to the Kumaras, in this case meaning fell into Generation."

--> There is another interpretation to idea of falling, and it is that the Kumaras (or someone else) needed to supply more help to the flegling human race in those early days but refused to do so. (And the debate rages on as to why they did not.) But this refusal to give assistance is The Fall, is the true meaning behind the meaning of the Fall of the Devil, and is why Lucifer is despised by so many of the world's religions.
Well, yes, but we find mention in some places - and it is echoes in others - that the Plans of the Hierarchy, as well as those of Shambhala Itself, are opposed directly. We know that this is the aim of the Black Lodge, on the one hand, but Master DK also provides instruction on the unfortunate situation during WWI and WWII. Cosmic evil found resonance, and - at our stage of planetary unfoldment - this is not good. We are also assured by the same Master, speaking on behalf of the Christ and the entire Hierarchy, that the situation is well under control; Sirian Masters are dealing with it. The Cosmic Avatar from Sirius, also, could probably swat down the opposition like bugs ... yet what would this do for human Free Will and karma?

I refer to the notion that we are dealing with a rather insidious force or presence, and that the notion of global destabilization was - and is - the aim. The consequences of this, if we want to grasp it, would be ... something like the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Once upon a time, when that Humanity was perhaps at a similar stage (or one parallel), things didn't quite go according to Plan ... and instead of an abortion, as on the Moon Chain, I gather we had more of - well, an explosion. So much for THAT scheme!

Yes, it's a bit much, so I don't enjoy even thinking about it. Two schemes merged, we now have the `Earth Scheme,' and tomorrow is another day.

The subject of the Kumaras is fairly involved, but my studies of the SD haven't quite taken me to a precise understanding of the order of events. I know we can speak of two `Falls' - one for which Humanity is more culpable than the other (the 2nd). In the first case, we find the Kumaras deeming the outer forms *unfit* for their entering, for their incarnation. But their error resulted in the need to make even greater sacrifices ... taking on vehicles which I gather weren't at *all* what they might have preferred. Master DK reminds us that we really aren't in the proper position to judge, or even to fully grasp just what are the factors involved - at least for the beings in question. If we consider their point in evolution, one may well ask the question, WHY would they need to incarnate AT ALL, to begin with?

And this, we are told, is a bit of a Mystery, because technically it was not required, is not required ... and therefore the Soul IS the Sacrificial Lamb, perhaps echoing - in the microcosm - the Macrocosmic "Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world."
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:05 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

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The result? No more Causal Body. The Soul is Liberated ... and moves on to higher work. At that point, the Monad is directly incarnate via the personality ... a direct link occurs, and this means that the person in question literally incarnates the Divine.
I have only read this far, I will perhaps read the rest later although I am about to leave the house...

What you have said is erroneous, however, since this infers there are two beings. While the witness - what is conveyed by 'soul' - is liberated, it remains with the body until the body dies. You are an incarnation of God as you are, an expression of him. You only need drop your illusions and see the truth in this. Personality, the patterns of behavior based on learning, is utterly dropped but memories are still accessible. The body still functions as a vehicle also, but all distinctions are dropped. Yet, what does it mean to incarnate? This means there is some distance, some distinction, between this plane and the spiritual. This is but another duality, material and spiritual are both here now. If you have not melted utterly into the divine, after a certain point, you will be reborn into another plane without a body, but the eternal witness is aware of that as well. You have remained with desires, and now you can do nothing, you are not material. You just wonder around looking for a ... well, a medium. For what though, you have not yet allowed yourself to surrender... you are still clinging to something, you are unwilling to go all the way.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:33 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

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Originally Posted by Lunitik View Post
I have only read this far, I will perhaps read the rest later although I am about to leave the house...

What you have said is erroneous, however, since this infers there are two beings. While the witness - what is conveyed by 'soul' - is liberated, it remains with the body until the body dies.
Well, in the Ageless Wisdom, there are two beings. That's just the trick. It's a difficult subject.

The Agnishvatta, or Manasaputra, is the Soul. In simple terms, *this* is something like a Nirmanakaya ... a Nirvanee [jivanmukta] from a prior cycle of Human evolution. As such, the Soul is ANCIENT, and attained to Liberation far, far ago ... when none of us was even yet incarnate in the Human Kingdom. At best, we may have been undergoing the equivalent of the animal Kingdom, on some other globe or scheme of evolution [dvipas, as they are termed in Hinduism], at the same time as our Souls were achieving Liberation from the Human Kingdom.

On the Moon Chain, we know that circumstances were quite different than they are at present ... and I came across similar teaching just the other day regarding different methods of INCARNATION of the Solar Angel. Apparently, on the Moon Chain it was possible for the Soul to materialize or appear directly and quite distinct from the person in question. This does seem counter-intuitive, I will grant you that much. But it isn't all that difficult to imagine when we accept the Masters. The Master, for example, knows us *as a Soul* and as the being which reincarnates ... and we are told that "The Soul and the Master are ONE." It is also true that [i]to address any of the Masters individually is also to address them all," for that is the very nature of Group Consciousness.

The Soul is group conscious - the personality is only learning. Until we have built the individual BRIDGE in our own awareness to the Soul [and Spiritual Triad] ... we are still dependent on the Soul for our connection to the Monad. Yes, there are TWO different Monads in question, and so we might also say that there are two souls. But it is helpful to realize that our own Soul is like the Christ Child, or infant. The metaphor holds good. The Christ differed, only in that He had attained well before any of the rest of us has ... the FIRST, in fact, of our own Humanity to do so. The Buddha was from the Moon Chain, hence is not `our own' ...

The Soul does not become `a copy of' the Agnishvatta, but I have sometimes wondered if this isn't a useful simplification. There are definitely two distinct individualities. And once the Agnishvatta has done its work, once the 4th Initiation is taken, it is free for higher work altogether ... and we do incarnate the Monad directly.

The life thread of which you speak is the sutratma. It is called `the silver cord' in New Age teachings, for reasons that are apparent to anyone who has seen it. This cord permanently binds us or tethers us to the physical body, being attached to [or within] the heart ... severed only at the moment of death. Yes, the sutratma exists for us all, Masters included. The difference is, the Master Who is NOT in incarnation, does not project the sutratma to the mental, astral or physical planes. He has no permanent atoms for those levels of existence, as he has parted with them, along with the Causal body. All that remains is his ability - if he is a Nirmanakaya - to CREATE by will [Kriyashakti] a projection. He may take incarnation, but this is voluntary and there is no personal karma left in his case whatsoever.

The CONSCIOUSNESS Thread, on the other hand ... the Rainbow Bridge or Antas Karana [also Antahkarana] ... is constructed by the Soul AND the personality together, becoming completed only after the 3rd Initiation. The expansion of the Heart and Throat Chakras that you mentioned definitely involve a corresponding widening of the bridge (so to speak) ... resulting in greater awareness of, and in, the Casual vehicle. A man might still take a high initiation, and yes, the Sutratma (or thread soul) remains anchored within his heart, yet for all practical intent the two threads are one, both having been effectively `built.' The work we must do is to build the bridge BACK. God, as we well know, has done the first half of it for us ... and the Sutratma, this "finest thread of Fohat," is the evidence.

So the study is an abstruse one. It will SEEM that we have "two souls" - even when we look to the Higher Mental, Buddhic and Atmic planes. In reality, this is technically so, but given the NATURE of the Soul on these levels, we MUST understand their relationship ... and realize that it is better to simply speak of the ONE Soul, even the SPIRITUAL SOUL of Humanity as a whole [on Buddhic levels, the WORLD Soul]. This is completely different than a question of whether a given jiva is in incarnation or not, and the question of what's going on with the sutratma.

Hope that helps!
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:01 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

Based on your statements, your philosophy is dualistic. For me, this means it does not go to the absolute heights of reality. For Buddha, there are beings on higher plains and even Gods on higher plains still, but these too are subject to illusion, birth and death. Ultimately, they remain separate due to desire, and thus are really not different from us - I think the Masters show such a similarity in that they are in a hierarchy, apparently politics remain even on that plane. I do not understand why anyone would wish to remain distinct, it just means they haven't overcome the fear of death still.
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:35 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

... there isn't any real proof that Blavatsky hung around with gurus and wise old sages. In fact, it is reputed she made the whole thing up, and all of the Mahatma letters were written by herself and the famous alleged peadophile Leadbetter....
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:33 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

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... there isn't any real proof that Blavatsky hung around with gurus and wise old sages. In fact, it is reputed she made the whole thing up, and all of the Mahatma letters were written by herself and the famous alleged peadophile Leadbetter....
It does depend on what you consider proof, now doesn't it. I would disagree with all of your statements, as apparently do plenty of others.

Personally, I have long ago found all the proof I need. This doesn't mean my faith, or knowledge is perfect. But you see, it doesn't need to be. Because of mine, I can help you with yours. I do sense, feel and hope to react positively to that spirit around here. Might not mean I EVER agree with you (or vice versa). And do I need to? Of course not. Not when I am content with [what others often term] my own faith, belief system, gestalt, etc.

Wager me (on these doubts of yours, or devil's advocate position) and I will win. That is what matters.

Btw, this is not what we call blind faith, or delusion. It is, simply [or at least includes, and rests firmly enough upon] the certain calm that comes from ... CLAP! [here, *you* must fill in the blank, this is just what comes to me]

In Christianity we would be speaking about the Rock. And so am I.

My interpretation has NOTHING to do with one man in history (as an individual, unique person, first Pope, yadda). Rather, it has to do with his FAITH. Or more to the point, the OBJECT of it. And again, the significance of that, to or for me, differs greatly from what the average Christian (certainly Catholic) will say. You see?

In short, those grooves in which the needle is stuck (at least imho), while helpful for some are limiting - incredibly incapacitating - for others. It does not mean the example is useless. My Goodness, what did I just say about St. Peter, and his FAITH?

What foolishness, that the entire point of this man's faith has been overlooked ... such that now we have come to remember him for just the opposite. The Wise will recall WHY he was first chosen by the Lord, and IF they know their Bible they will remember, or ponder the relationship that grew between this Apostle and Christ Jesus. They will note his closeness to Christ and they will understand that it was for THIS relationship, this FAITH and recognition that Christ said, "On THIS ROCK I shall build my Church."

Oh yes, there are also several deeper, esoteric and symbolic meanings, etc. Yet if the Christian cannot feel, find and KNOW this faith ... then St. Peter may as well never have walked the Earth, nor Christ, nor you nor I.
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:24 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

Indeed, it does depend on what you consider to be proof, doesn't it?

I like facts best.

Here's a few, for your perusal. None of which you can deny, Andrew, although you will no doubt try.

It's a fact that Blavatsky struggled with simple Vedic terms and misspelt the sanskrit that accompanies them. That fact leads me to consider that her Mahatmas were either ignoramuses or imaginary friends.

It's a fact that Leadbetter slept with young boys and pretended it made him holy.

It is a fact that Krsnamurti's dad appealed to the Madras High Court, saying "I want my children to be returned me. They are being homosexually abused by Leadbeater." (source: Osho, "Hyakujo : The Everest of Zen, with Basho's Haiku's").

It is also a fact that Nityananda, Krsnamurti's brother, died in the care of Annie Besant and Charles Leadbetter, due to the poor treatment he received from these so called great, holy beings, who starved him and deprived him of sleep.

It's a fact that withholding sleep and controlling people's dietary intake and depriving them of protein and forcing them to perform lots of meditation and ritual practise are common brainwashing tactics.

It is also a fact that Annie Besant, contrary to the ruling of that same court in Madras who said the boys should go back to their father, spirited them away to England instead.

It is also a fact that Alice Bailey describes Jews as monkeys and inferior beings and denies they are an individual race.

Here, then, are lots of facts. Lots of facts that agree with your statement that your faith is not perfect.

And yet, your response to my post, as per usual, is partonising and full of high sounding fluff. "Nobody here agrees with you, Sam Albion". "Sam Albion, you cannot feel the spirit around here". "Sam Albion, I have faith, and you do not". "Don't badmouth my faith, Sam Albion, because it harms/incapacitates others". "Sam Albion, you cannot possibly understand the deeper esoteric meanings within my faith".

Perhaps there is some hidden, esoteric meaning behind kidnapping, child abuse, and jew-hating that I am too ignorant to grasp?

You can't help me with my faith, Andrew, but maybe I can help you with yours.

I suggest you put all your theosophy tracts out in your yard, grab a nice big box of matches, and a small amount of petrol, and do what needs to be done.

"Wager me, and I will win", you say.

Are you sure about that?

Denying facts doesn't make them go away.

Still feel like a winner, kiddo?
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:30 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

Interesting... where can one go to validate these "facts" that fly in the face of what Theosophy teaches? Are they as easily found as the problems of Scientology?
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Old 03-29-2012, 09:34 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

read the books. do some internet searches. it's all out there.
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Old 03-30-2012, 05:06 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

You just crucified your precious Christ, btw. Feel better now to see that I can do it too?

Show us all your great and worldly Wisdom, Francis. Tell us all about how it actually is?

Sound familiar?
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:13 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

Isn't it a pity
Now, isn't it a shame
How we break each other's hearts
And cause each other pain
How we take each other's love
Without thinking anymore
Forgetting to give back
Isn't it a pity

Some things take so long
But how do I explain
When not too many people
Can see we're all the same
And because of all their tears
Their eyes can't hope to see
The beauty that surrounds them
Isn't it a pity

Isn't it a pity
Isn't is a shame
How we break each other's hearts
And cause each other pain
How we take each other's love
Without thinking anymore
Forgetting to give back
Isn't it a pity

Forgetting to give back
Isn't it a pity
Forgetting to give back
Now, isn't it a pity


What a pity
What a pity, pity, pity
What a pity
What a pity, pity, pity
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:30 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: About occultists

I was going to stop researching when I could find no original citations about these "facts" (so far I believe them about as much I believe the Truthers and Birthers). However, given AndrewX's response, I shall continue (I always assume the lady doth protestesth too much when she does). Thanks Sam, will let you know.
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