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12-04-2005, 05:46 PM
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#31 (permalink) | ||
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Rider on the storm...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Edinburgh, scotland
Posts: 5,237
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
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As for the bulk of your argument I dont have any major issue with where Baha'i are represented but it seems to me that it is first and foremost a modern religeon. To argue otherwise is nitpicking and to do so in the form of your initial assault is counterproductive to your desired aim. I would also add that you seem very unlike the other Baha'i I see post here. Quote:
TE |
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12-04-2005, 05:52 PM
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#32 (permalink) |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 607
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
For that matter, I have been a travel teacher and a home front pioneer myself. I have moved to communities because they need one or two more Baha`i's to form a Local Spiritual Assembly. I have travelled two or three hundred miles at a time because I was asked to come speak at a public meeting or teach at a Baha`i School.
The fact remains that we have no clergy to perform those functions. its a matter of personal initiative to assist the institutions of the faith. I am not remunerated, no one is. Even members of a National Spiritual Assembly cover their own costs in travel to meetings and performing the functions of the institution unless they are unable to do so. A Baha`i with money, but no time to devote to the cause might deputize someone else to do it for him, providing the means to travel. That is acceptable in the faith, but its a personal thing on both sides. I know an Auxiliary Board Member for Protection who had to give up an executive job with the Red Cross to perform a needed Baha`i function. Her husband, a physician, deputized her. It was personal, not institutional support. During Katrina and Rita, she was asked to come back and cover her desk part-time to allow other local Red Cross the ability to travel from home to do what was needed, so she was "deputized" the other way to go back to her old job on a temporary basis. Means can be found to perform work for one's faith, and with a faith without clergy, we have to be creative to get it done. Individuals donating their time and fortume to the work on a voluntary basis is the way to do it. Regards, Scott |
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12-04-2005, 05:54 PM
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#33 (permalink) | |
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Bahá'í
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North Carolina, USA
Posts: 530
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
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12-04-2005, 06:09 PM
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#34 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 607
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
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Another board offers a way for people to give approval toother posts and this provides some positive strokes in exchange for dialogue, that's nice. Regards, Scott |
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12-04-2005, 06:34 PM
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#36 (permalink) | |
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Rider on the storm...
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Edinburgh, scotland
Posts: 5,237
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
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The terms Modern, Old or Ancient are relative. When applied to religions it would be extremely difficult to qualify Baha'i in anything other than the modern camp. Respect and regards TE |
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12-04-2005, 06:47 PM
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#37 (permalink) |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 607
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
In the end its a tempest in a teapot.
Regardless of how Brian organizes or I feel about it, I have bigger concerns than forecasting weather in teapots, so, I am sure, does Brian and every one else. Abdu'l Baha lived his life trying to create unity and amity amongst men of all origins. When after more than a decade of warning the people of the oncoming horror of the war, he was finally forced to send home American pilgrims in 1917 and close all pilgrimage until peace could be re-established. He wrote this in the world-wide tempest of the Great War: "In brief, O ye believers of God! The text of the Divine Book is this: If two souls quarrel and contend about a question of the Divine questions, differing and disputing, both are wrong. The wisdom of this incontrovertible law of God is this: That between two souls from amongst the believers of God, no contention and dispute may arise; that they may speak with each other with infinite amity and love. Should there appear the least trace of controversy, they must remain silent, and both parties must continue their discussions no longer, but ask the reality of the question from the Interpreter. This is the irrefutable command Upon you be Baha El-Abha! Supplication O God, my God! Thou seest how black darkness is enshrouding all regions, how all countries are burning with the flame of dissension, and the fire of war and carnage is blazing throughout the East and the West. Blood is flowing, corpses bestrew the ground, and severed heads are fallen on the dust of the battlefield. O Lord! Have pity on these ignorant ones, and look upon them with the eye of forgiveness and pardon. Extinguish this fire, so that these dense clouds which obscure the horizon may be scattered, the Sun of Reality shine forth with the rays of conciliation, this intense gloom be dispelled and the resplendent light of peace shed its radiance upon all countries. O Lord! Draw up the people from the abyss of the ocean of hatred and enmity, and deliver them 181 from the impenetrable darkness. Unite their hearts, and brighten their eyes with the light of peace and reconciliation. Deliver them from the depths of war and bloodshed, and free them from the darkness of error. Remove the veil from their eyes, and enlighten their hearts with the light of guidance. Treat them with Thy tender mercy and compassion, and deal not with them according to Thy justice and wrath which cause the limbs of the mighty to quake. O Lord! Wars have persisted. Distress and anxiety have waxed great, and every flourishing region is laid waste. O Lord! Hearts are heavy, and souls are in anguish. Have mercy on these poor souls, and do not leave them to the excesses of their own desires. O Lord! Make manifest in Thy lands humble and submissive souls, their faces illumined with the rays of guidance, severed from the world, extolling Thy Name, uttering Thy praise, and diffusing the fragrance of Thy holiness amongst mankind. O Lord! Strengthen their backs, gird up their 182 loins, and enrapture their hearts with the most mighty signs of Thy love. O Lord! Verily, they are weak, and Thou art the Powerful and the Mighty; they are impotent, and Thou art the Helper and the Merciful. O Lord! The ocean of rebellion is surging, and these tempests will not be stilled save through Thy boundless grace which hath embraced all regions. O Lord! Verily, the people are in the abyss of passion, and naught can save them but Thine infinite bounties. O Lord! Dispel the darkness of these corrupt desires, and illumine the hearts with the lamp of Thy love through which all countries will erelong be enlightened. Confirm, moreover, Thy loved ones, those who, leaving their homelands, their families and their children, have, for the love of Thy Beauty, traveled to foreign countries to diffuse Thy fragrances and promulgate Thy Teachings. Be Thou their companion in their loneliness, their helper in a strange land, the remover of their sorrows, their comforter in calamity. Be Thou a refreshing draught for their thirst, 183 a healing medicine for their ills and a balm for the burning ardor of their hearts. Verily, Thou art the Most Generous, the Lord of grace abounding, and, verily, Thou art the Compassionate and the Merciful. April 19, 20, and 22, 1917 (H.M. Balyuzi, Abdu'l-Baha - The Centre of the Covenant, p. 511) |
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12-05-2005, 11:54 AM
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#38 (permalink) |
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Where is my mind?
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Middlesbrough, UK
Posts: 602
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
Baha'iism does indeed seem to have a lot in common with the "Big 3" but the crucial differences appear to be the numbers of followers and the level of recognition among the rest of the population. I'm curious, do the Baha'is here think that Rastafarianism should also be included in the Abrahamic section? How about Waco's Davidean Cult, their leader too claims Abrahamic lineage.
I dont think Christians and Muslims had a very easy time right at first, and it seems the Jews have never had it easy. Christians, Jews and Muslims have all had a tough time over hundreds, maybe thousands of years but they have come through it all and the whole world can see that their religions have strength and their teachings have at least some measure of truth. If Baha'iism does survive and thrive and grow for the next few hundred years then I have no doubt it will eventually take its place amongst the great world religions and no one will begrudge it a place on any monotheism board (or whatever the futuristic equivalent might be). On the other hand, it may simply fizzle out. Either way, surely no one can expect to start a new religion, and after 120 or so years, have it achieve the same levels of recognition as other religions which have been established for thousands of years. |
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12-05-2005, 02:06 PM
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#39 (permalink) | ||||
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World Citizen
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Muskegon, MI
Posts: 211
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
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warmly, Mick |
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12-05-2005, 02:33 PM
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#40 (permalink) | ||
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Executive Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 607
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
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The Iranian http://www.iranianvoice.org/article511.html - this is not a Bahai publication. Bahais are an enigma in Iran! The Iranian regime, which doesn't really give a damn about their basic civil rights, flagrantly denies their existence by collectively dismissing the 500,000 strong communities as a nameless forgotten page of Iranian history. In a blatant display of medieval cleansing the theocratic regime in Iran tries to deny the Bahais hope and deprive them of their will to survive by closing their "Open University" so that they may remain the permanent underclass nailed to the bottom most wrung of Iranian society. . . . Perhaps it is an unprecedented effort in the annals of modern human history that a government driven by intense theocratic philosophy is so determined to 'ideologically cleanse' an entire segment of the society in name of Islamic Puritanism. Indeed the theocracy has realised that rather then make martyrs of individual Bahais and attract world-wide attention they could inflict a devastating blow to this small minority by denying their children the chance of an even modest education. Intellectual cleansing of their ethnic brothers by the clergy dominated regime is incredible and a very disturbing aspect of contemporary Iranian culture. The silence of Iranian polity, like the 'silence of the lamb' when devoured, is even more disconcerting, perhaps in their defence the struggle from dogmatic authoritarianism has so occupied the reformist struggle that the rights of a marginalized minority are relegated to the fringe. The real truth is though that no one gives a damn what happens to Bahais. "Haqeshooneh", is the common dismissive statement when the plight of the Bahais are brought up. However the dual rights to exist and believe is the basic human freedom accorded to man from the day we are born, denying this is worst than death. . . . Cyrus 2,560 years ago issued a decree on his aims and policies, later hailed as his charter of the rights of nations. Cyrus's claim to fame was that he symbolized Multiculturalism, a word coined to express the coexistence and peaceful cohabitation of peoples from different background and culture in one land. . . . Nations especially one as culturally and ethnically rich as Iran, which happens to boast itself as the rightful heir to the title of the 'bastion and cradle of civilisations', are the traditional keepers and trustees of the conscience of mankind. Iran, in its existence as a continuous five thousand year old civilisation, bred the finest literary classics, the most elegant poetic prose and has bequeathed an enduring artistic and cultural legacy that is revered throughout the Islamic world. A civilisation, which taught the world the subtlest of the nuances in language, has been robbed of its millennia old traditions within a span of three decades by 'theocracy'. A theocracy that has tarnished Persian society with 'medieval ignorance' and in its litany of accomplishments managed to produce a series of crimes against humanity. If the Iranian theocracy was practising racial discrimination, it would at least be an understandable phenomenon, since the hatred of the "Other" has defined and continues to mar human societies. However to discriminate against citizenry on basis of archaic imported ideology is the most appalling feat of the Iranian theocracy. The interjections of medieval ideology have created shades and strains that have temporarily robbed Iran of its vast cultural and literary exquisiteness. Tragic as it may sound, I'm sure the ideological authoritarian extremism will only be a footnote in the future history of Iran. However the repression of the Bahai minority, which is being robbed of the education of its youth, has condemned it to a future of perpetual decline. It is this eventuality that we all should assume responsibility for and to avert this Iranians must accept that Bahais are an integral and loyal community within Iran, extending the same inclusiveness reserved for Shi'ites and other minorities. Bahai children should not be allowed to become pariahs and suffer the same fate as their parents, which will occur if the current status quo prevails. If the deliberate decadence and deflowering of a refined Iranian society under the authoritarian medieval clergy is the grossest of the sins, the plight of the Bahais in Iran is another transgression of equal culpability and intensity. It is unique that not only the voice of majority in Iran but also the rights of minority have been so vehemently subdued with unfailing force. The Iranian theocratic revolution, repulsive as it is in its content and approach, has accorded irreparable damage to the image of Iran and the Iranian people. The complicity or rather the lamb-like silence of the Iranian people over the persecution of the Bahais is often rooted in the claim they are an "irredentist" minority whose loyalty lies in a "universal" community rather than a national one. Bahais claim that their supreme mission is none other but the achievement of organic and spiritual unity of the whole body of nations was and remains, in my opinion, one of the most groundbreaking ideas of the 19th century. For such an inspiration to arise in the backward and medieval society of Qajar Persia is astonishing. Bahai ideals, in no way, alienate Iranians and there is no reason for such censure on the part of the latter. One can remain detached from the rituals of the Bahai faith but undoubtedly it is very thought provoking and a roadmap of future global constitution. Still, rather than being celebrated for their contribution and evolution of Iranian thought or even engaged in debates about the validity of their beliefs, Bahais are considered to have suspect allegiances, foreign imperialists and "Zionist agents". The Iranian Bahais can hardly be considered a fifth column! As opposed to Iranian Muslims, who fancifully claim their original roots to be in ancient Persia rather than the Arabian deserts, the Bahais are the distinctive breed in that many are the descendants of the last batch of Zoroastrians to convert to a new faith. It is a rich statement that 'Iranians do not consider Bahais as Iranians' since it was some of the ancestors of the Bahais, the Zoroastrians of Kerman and Yazd, who maintained their unadulterated pre-Islamic Iranian religion until 19th century, when they converted to Bahaism. The centuries following the invading armies of Caliph Umar converted most of Iran but some maintained their pre-Islamic culture and tradition with zeal, however to accuse the Iranians, who converted from Zoroastrianism to Bahaism only in 19th century, of 'adulteration of stock' is vicious and wicked. Shi'ite Islam in and of itself was a continuation of the Iranian stratagem to express national resistance through intellectual and spiritual dissent. When the Iranian nation was brutally annexed after battle of Qadisiyya in 636 AD, Iranians adhered to the Shi'ite Islam as being the true followers of House of Hashim instead of the House of Banu Ummiyah, which was more representative of the Arab dark ages. The Shi'ite leaning of Iran may be perceived to be religiously motivated but instead it was a bold political move to exhibit its open revulsion of the Umayyad dynasty, support of Banu Hashim was rejection of infected Arabism of Umayyads. Even under occupation Iranians revolted and accepted Banu Hashim as their saviours. The support of the underdog instead of the powerful is the sign that a virtuous nation Iranian amply displayed that unquestionably. Intellectual dissension has been a omnipresent feature of Iran since the birth of its native philosophy. Allama Iqbal Lahori, whose works on Islamic civilisation and philosophy were pioneering, noted in his book "The Development of Metaphysics in Persia" of how Iran gave birth to eschatological thought, its evolution into Zoroastrianism and the tremendous influence of the distinct strain of Iranian-Zoroastrian thought in the formation of Shi'ite Islam. He refers to the Bahai faith and in his own words, "But all the various lines of Persian thought once more find a synthesis in that great religious movement of modern Persia - Babism Bahaism - which began as a Shia sect with Mirza Ali Muhammad Bab of Shiraz and became less and less in Islamic character with the progress of orthodox persecutions..." Bahai revelation may have needed the rich intellectual and spiritual tradition of Iran; indeed in more primeval regions the religion would have withered. The principles of the faith are an echo of the charter of the rights of nations and peoples, laid down by Cyrus the Great 2,500 years ago, which instituted tolerance and acceptance of diverse cultures & beliefs as a permanent feature of the Persian Empire. The hushed stance of the descendents of the Cyrus the great is disgusting as well as disconcerting. Iranians or the Persians trace their roots to Cyrus (580-529 BC) who was the first Achaemenian Emperor. Cyrus was upright, a great leader of men, generous and benevolent. The Hellenes, whom he conquered, regarded him as 'Law-giver' and the Jews as 'the annointed of the Lord'. Prof. Richard Frye of Harvard said (in The Heritage of Persia, p10-151): "In the victories of the Persians... what was different was the new policy of reconciliation and together with this was the prime aim of Cyrus to establish a pax Achaemenica ... If one were to assess the achievements of the Achaemenid Persians, surely the concept of One World, ... the fusion of peoples and cultures in one 'Oecumen' was one of their important legacies" He founded Persia by uniting the two original Iranian Tribes- the Medes and the Persians. Although he was known to be a great conqueror, who at one point controlled one of the greatest Empires ever seen, he is best remembered for his unprecedented tolerance and magnanimous attitude towards those he defeated. Sadly, nearly 2,529 years after Cyrus, Iran finds itself in the clutches of intolerance and dogmatic rigidity, Iran and Iranians categorically do not deserve this. Acceptance of Bahais within the society will be a fulfilment of the dreams of Cyrus. Reconciliation and tolerance should be the basis of the modern Iranian nation even if it remains fixed to its religious moorings. Contrary to charges that they are the '******* children' of British colonialism, aiming to destroy Shi'ite Islam, the fact of the matter is that the Bahais were the last bastions of Iranian culture who moved on to embrace global culture, their ascension from a medieval society to the most modern of thoughts is incredible and amazing if anything else. It was like evolving from the Palaeolithic Age to the Cyber age, the Bahais of Iran advocated ideas that were revolutionary, even from western standards, such as a federalised earth and the equality of gender. The Bahai faith is the pinnacle of Iranian institutions and will be the foremost legacy of Iran to the globe. The ideal of an egalitarian society where the prejudice of colour, race and belief will be shunned and a new call of oneness of mankind becomes the cardinal goal of mankind looks premature even now. In medieval Iran of the 19th century how could a man, descending partly from aristocracy and partly from Babism, have coined the new world order of collective progress is beyond the scope of many great modern thinkers. The vision of future held by members of the Bahai community, however little it may be understood as yet by the majority of the planet's inhabitants, refutes the idea of encroaching darkness; the Bahai vision is, in contrast, one of great promise. The Bahai vision amongst the contemporary revolutionary thoughts is viewed...as marking the last and highest stage in the stupendous evolution of man's collective life on this planet. The emergence of a world community, the consciousness of world citizenship, the founding of a world civilization and culture... should, by their very nature, be regarded, as far as this planetary life is concerned, as the furthermost limits and the cutting edge in the organization of human society, . . . " Also: http://iona.ghandchi.com/hatcher.htm http://bahai-library.com/newspapers/080198.html http://www.idsnews.com/features/iran/main.html http://www.blaketashi.com/persecution.htm http://www.cswusa.com/Countries/Iran.htm (a Christian source) http://www.statesman.com/metrostate/...07/8bahai.html http://religiousmovements.lib.virgin...nrms/bahi.html http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint...vab/nuvvab.htm http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0...eyword=&teaser= http://commdocs.house.gov/committees...fa50498_0f.htm http://www.irainc.org/dcenter/religion.html http://www.parliament.the-stationery.../80/80ap03.htm Yahoo! search had one hundred pages of results on Bahai persecution. Regards, Scott |
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12-05-2005, 02:40 PM
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#41 (permalink) | |
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UNeyeR1
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,993
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
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12-05-2005, 03:28 PM
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#42 (permalink) | |||
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Where is my mind?
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Middlesbrough, UK
Posts: 602
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
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12-05-2005, 06:31 PM
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#43 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 607
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
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"The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul; and these two names -- the human spirit and the rational soul -- designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished, and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets. But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit, and is its essential quality, as the sun's rays are the essential necessity of the sun." (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 317) Logic does not require material evidence alone. It can proceed from intuition as well. To confuse logic with scientific method is a common error. The "scientific method" is one very specific form of logic, by far not the only one. ". . . hence the need for such diverse, interfaith communities as our's here at CR to discuss and understand one another." Absolutely! But this is not the ONLY such diverse, interfaith community. I offer: http://www.interfaithforums.com/index.php and http://www.interfaithforums.com/index.php both of these particular forae use the same bulletin board software as CR. And that's just the beginning for interfaith dialogue sites. Some are snake pits, but the two above are very similar to this board in tone and social behavior. One of these forums actually includes the Rastafari in the Abrahamic section. The board is largely inactive, but its there. And apparently no explosions occured when they organized it that way. Regards, Scott |
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12-05-2005, 09:54 PM
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#44 (permalink) | |
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World Citizen
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Muskegon, MI
Posts: 211
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
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Mick |
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12-05-2005, 09:59 PM
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#45 (permalink) |
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World Citizen
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Muskegon, MI
Posts: 211
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Re: Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?
Scott,
I say this lovingly. One of the complaints I read in the past is that Baha'is have a tendancy to answer everything with a quote. May I suggest that very long posts that are filled with quotes and URL's may just irritate some. I surely understand that quotations from the Writings are powerful and I have found little argument when I am in a conversation with somebody, but in this type of forum, one could see it as "trying to force it down one's throat", don't you think. Thank you for your wonderful support. Your love and concern for humanity sees no bounds. I am sure that is what drives you to quote as you do. warmly, Mick Zellar |
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