Abrahamic? Am I missing the meaning?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Mick

Really, I thought you believed in original sin. If you do, then how can the "Christ nature", which would be pretty sinless, be a persons true nature? I really get confused, sometimes, trying to follow the different Christian lines. I should have asked first, not assumed, do you believe in original sin?

I think you might have a simplistic understanding of original sin, and perhaps a simplistic understanding of Christianity as a whole. I will return later with a lesson for you, if you are truely interested in understanding what I believe.

cheers,
lunamoth

[Mick]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think you might have a simplistic understanding of original sin, and perhaps a simplistic understanding of Christianity as a whole. I will return later with a lesson for you, if you are truely interested in understanding what I believe.

cheers,
lunamoth

I surely am.

Mick

[InChristAlways]

Originally Posted by lunamoth
Hi Mick,
Or, Christ stating that He is the Alpha and the Omega may mean He is something entirely different than being a prophet.

peace,
lunamoth

quote Mick:

Maybe, I thought, you just were over zealous with your capitals when you chose to capitalize the H and the M, so now it would read ...in our(meaning mankinds) Hearts(again meaning mankinds) and Minds(meaning mankinds) through His Spirit. Are you saying that we know the "laws of God" through the His Spirit? If this is true, the ministry in the Christian religion seems to be heading for the unemployment line. .............

............Such as the "SON"? We accept that. Actually, we see him as a Manifestation of God, which is a little more headier than a prophet, which if you were a Baha'i, I am sure you are aware of this.................

........So to summarize, we surely think that Jesus of Nazereth, Jesus the Christ, The Son, was more than just a prophet.

Hi Mick. Does your religion believe in the writings of the Apostle Paul?

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not forth from Thy presence, And thy holy spirit take not from me.

2 Corinthians 3:3 manifested that ye are a letter of Christ ["anointed"] ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart,

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Mick

I surely am.

Mick

Great, I look forward to it!

peace,
lunamoth

[lunamoth]

A tidbit:

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. (Romans 8)

I think this is referring to what some Christians call the indwelling of the Spirit. See, even here a kind of duality is said to exist in a human, our sin nature and the Spirit of Christ, living in us. This seems to me to be like what Baha'is believe, humans having a lower animal nature and a higher spiritual nature. Actually, I think that in Baha'u'llah's Teachings on Spirtual Reality three aspect of human nature are discussed, by Abdul Baha if I remember correctly. Our animal nature, our human nature, and our divine nature. Anyway, to me this explains how we are sinful, yet also can be holy. God would not call us to be holy if it were not possible.

peace,
lunamoth



peace,
lunamoth

[lunamoth]

Dear Mick,

BTW, I take issue with some things Baha'i, strong issue at times, as you have seen on these boards, but I respect the Baha'i Faith. Do you respect Christianity?

peace,
lunamoth

[Mick]

Originally Posted by InChristAlways

Originally Posted by lunamoth
Hi Mick,
Hi Mick. Does your religion believe in the writings of the Apostle Paul?

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not forth from Thy presence, And thy holy spirit take not from me.

2 Corinthians 3:3 manifested that ye are a letter of Christ [#anointed] ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart,

A religion doesn't believe or disbelieve. It teaches. I am not trying to be condescending, but words are rich and that question is spiked with 'whip cream' to make it even richer.

We accept the Holy Bible in its entirety, as well as other Holy Writings, such as The Koran and The Torah, as well as others that you are probably not interested in. We, of course, would include the Bayan, by The Bab and all the hundreds of books and documents written by Baha'u'llah.

We are told to read all of these documents in an historical perspective and to not take anything out of context. We are also warned that we should look at the writings of God in a symbolic perspective when necessary as well as a literal perspective. For instance, when the Bible gives direction to become baptized in fire and water. We understand it to mean in the spirit and knowledge of God. Literalists have told me it means spirit and water. Huh? Kind of like a mixed metaphor.

So a long answer for a short question and all I was saying was yes, we accept the Bible as the Word of God. What did you want to quote?

Mick

[InChristAlways]

Hi Mick. Does your religion believe in the writings of the Apostle Paul?

Psalms 51:11 Cast me not forth from Thy presence, And thy holy spirit take not from me.

2 Corinthians 3:3 manifested that ye are a letter of Christ [#anointed] ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in the tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart,

We are told to read all of these documents in an historical perspective and to not take anything out of context. We are also warned that we should look at the writings of God in a symbolic perspective when necessary as well as a literal perspective. For instance, when the Bible gives direction to become baptized in fire and water. We understand it to mean in the spirit and knowledge of God. Literalists have told me it means spirit and water. Huh? Kind of like a mixed metaphor.

So a long answer for a short question and all I was saying was yes, we accept the Bible as the Word of God. What did you want to quote?

Mick

Ok thanks Mick. The main reason I asked was because of this response in an earlier post:

Are you saying that we know the "laws of God" through the His Spirit? If this is true, the ministry in the Christian religion seems to be heading for the unemployment line. .............

There are of course messianics that believe Paul was a "false Apostle", but then again, that is the choice of those that follow God and the Bible and whether they feel writings are inspired or not. Thanks for the response brother.

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

We have seen that Paul's picture of God's sovereignty doesn't exist in the Scriptures. We might call this the DNA evidence against him (Doctrine Not Accurate). It is an important part of the case against him. But it is by no means all the evidence there is against his supposed authority. There is more than enough evidence to suggest that he was not even a true apostle of Yahshua let alone the greatest apostle who ever lived as he is so often eulogized.

There are a number of historical facts, quotations from Paul, and quotations from Yahshua recorded in the New Testament that leave us with some quite compelling evidence against his apostleship being recognized in heaven.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Dear Mick,

BTW, I take issue with some things Baha'i, strong issue at times, as you have seen on these boards, but I respect the Baha'i Faith. Do you respect Christianity?

peace,
lunamoth

Since Christianity has so many faces, I woudn't even know for sure which flavor you are asking about. So I hope you understand where I am coming from when I say, "No". But I respect many Christians I know and I love the words of Christ.

I am interested in what issues you take umbrage with: World peace, Equality of men and women, Oneness of religion, Oneness of mankind, Universal language, The promise day has come? Or some other?

Mick

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Mick

Since Christianity has so many faces, I woudn't even know for sure which flavor you are asking about. So I hope you understand where I am coming from when I say, "No". But I respect many Christians I know and I love the words of Christ.

I am interested in what issues you take umbrage with: World peace, Equality of men and women, Oneness of religion, Oneness of mankind, Universal language, The promise day has come? Or some other?

Mick

Hi Mick,

Are you really interested in dialogue, or are you mostly interested in running me down?

Laurie

[Mick]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

A tidbit:



I think this is referring to what some Christians call the indwelling of the Spirit. See, even here a kind of duality is said to exist in a human, our sin nature and the Spirit of Christ, living in us. This seems to me to be like what Baha'is believe, humans having a lower animal nature and a higher spiritual nature. Actually, I think that in Baha'u'llah's Teachings on Spirtual Reality three aspect of human nature are discussed, by Abdul Baha if I remember correctly. Our animal nature, our human nature, and our divine nature. Anyway, to me this explains how we are sinful, yet also can be holy. God would not call us to be holy if it were not possible.

peace,
lunamoth



peace,
lunamoth

You Quoted,

"9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. (Romans 8)"

Do you really think that is what it means? Hmmmm. In (9), it seems Paul is telling us that ..."if the Spirit of God lives in you." Not 'the spirit of God lives in you.', but "IF..." In fact Paul goes on to state that there is a condition where the Spirit is not in you..."And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ...", so it would seem to support the "if" word.

It suggests to me that Paul is inferring you must install the spirit. I would suggest by the acceptance as Jesus as your Savior. If this is true, and it surely seems that is what Paul is suggesting, then it doesn't support your premise of "indwelling". I have not found where Christianity supports this notion.

On the other hand, we, Baha'is, do believe in a soul that exists from the time of conception. It does dwell within us and can be nourished with prayer, entreatment of God and good acts. The soul, in return, helps guide us in our daily lives. We also believe that at the time of the recognition of God, the nourishment is so great, that people seem to glow. I know that I have been around Christian friends that have recently been "born again" and they truly were filled with a spiritual power that was overwhelming. This is true with those I have been around that have recognized Baha'u'llah and His Station. These are the only two religions I have been close to the advocates of at the time of declaration, but I would think it is true no matter how one recognizes God. Numbers 10 and 11 seem to explain and promise but surely don't suggest that the soul is within you at the time of conception.

So I'm suggesting that knowledge of the soul as an "indwelled" entity, is a Baha'i principal, not a Christian principal. You may use it, if you care to. We don't mind. After all, it comes from God and all we are doing is sharing it with the world, as He asked us to.

warmly,

Mick

[Mick]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Mick,

Are you really interested in dialogue, or are you mostly interested in running me down?

Laurie

I am not interested in running you down? How did I do that? I truly apologize, if in my ignorance, I offended you.

Mick

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Mick

I am not interested in running you down? How did I do that? I truly apologize, if in my ignorance, I offended you.

Mick

Hi Mick,

Well, insinuating that I would object to peace and unity of mankind was rather unkind.

lunamoth

[taijasi]

Then again, let's not forget that the Bahai notion of an indwelling Soul as our higher nature, unless it draws from teachings pre-Sufi & pre-Islamic ... is certainly just a borrowing of the same concept from Buddhist, Vedic, and other sources - dating back many tens of thousands of years!!! The Christian teachers, such as Origen and Clement of Alexandria, knew this, and so did St. Paul - being well-versed in the Wisdom Teachings of his day.

I find it simply amazing that folks still clamor to present their version of the Ageless Wisdom - or God's own Truth - as somehow proprietary, TradeMarked, and "original." At best, one might say, in the Bahai Faith, such & such is called x. Surely this would be more in accordance with the facts. For, if we wish to discuss the presence of the Indwelling Christ, Buddhi, Soul, or spiritual principle ... then we'll need to go back at least to the ancient Greek and still more ancient Egyptian texts, although the Vedic (Hindu) will also speak to this subject.

I admit I'm only here at the tail end of the conversation, and haven't followed the whole thread from start to finish, but if all we're trying to do is be on the same page regarding the Presence of this aspect of our nature, then surely the point is to agree and not quibble over terminologies or subtleties.

From a Christian perspective, we might say ... that the only reason Christ was even able to do His work to begin with, was because of the presence of this Higher Aspect of our nature -> St. Paul's `Christ within, the Hope of Glory.' It was by the stimulation of this same nature within us - as yet undeveloped and unperfected, which in Christ's own nature was fully developed and perfected. This statement of Paul's offers at one & the same time, the explanation of our relationship to Christ, as well as our hope for the future, as we become more Christlike. It also shows that Christ's work 2,000 years ago (and that of other prophets since) was not simply to plant new seeds (i.e., Teachings), but also to water the existing seed of our spiritual nature(s) - present from all time (the Indwelling Christ).

Every great teacher, according to this principle, of whatever Faith, would work in the same way, his or her Highest Nature stimulating that within his or followers ... while those with unperfected natures will also stimulate the lower aspects of their followers' natures - and this explains the many failures, the false prophets (well-intentioned, but not truly capable of leading), and the simply deluded.

andrew

[Mick]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Mick,

Well, insinuating that I would object to peace and unity of mankind was rather unkind.

lunamoth

Nope, wasn't my intention. What I did was list some of the principles of the Baha'i Faith. You had mentioned that you took issue of certain things regarding the Baha'i Faith and the principles are about all that matters. Of course, I didn't list all of them, but I am still interested in what issues you take with Baha'is?

I once made a list describing each of the major Manifestations with a single word, describing Their core message. Let me try to do this from memory:

Abraham - Covenant
Moses - Laws
Jesus - Forgiveness
The Buddha - Soul
Krshna - Godhead
Zoroaster - Spirituality
Mohammed - Order (Civil)
The Bab - Hope
Baha'u'llah - Unity

Now if I truly believe the core message of Baha'u'llah is unity, and I do, and you say you take issues with the Baha'i Faith, and you have, then I am interested in what the issues are, particularly if they involve any of the promised unities.

Mick