Allowing child molesters in church?

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment, (which I agree to be one of the finest novels in mankinds library), and the odd "curing" by Yogis, healers and the like is still irrelevant in how we deal with child preditors.
TE

And how is that possible Tao. Apart from the 'crime and punishment' material, I believe the rest is relevant to the thread.

Paedophiliacs probably would be guys who cannot control the dark desires of the mind. You keep on insisting on seeing them as objects and scum who should be locked up permanently. I believe these guys are helplessly driven by their nature and tendencies and an uncontrolled mind.

An uncontrolled mind and lack of morality and ethics indeed , is the source of all crimes and mistakes.

Meditation and mind control, which if each child could study and practice, could possibly eradicate not only paedophilia, but other crimes as well.

It is not just important to tell a person that he should not steal or murder or rape, he should also be allowed to be given the means to control his mind, which can help him very much in the process.

We have to get into the roots of the matter, not just keep on trimming the branches.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by niranjan

And how is that possible Tao. Apart from the 'crime and punishment' material, I believe the rest is relevant to the thread.

Paedophiliacs probably would be guys who cannot control the dark desires of the mind. You keep on insisting on seeing them as objects and scum who should be locked up permanently. I believe these guys are helplessly driven by their nature and tendencies and an uncontrolled mind.

An uncontrolled mind and lack of morality and ethics indeed , is the source of all crimes and mistakes.

Meditation and mind control, which if each child could study and practice, could possibly eradicate not only paedophilia, but other crimes as well.

It is not just important to tell a person that he should not steal or murder or rape, he should also be allowed to be given the means to control his mind, which can help him very much in the process.

We have to get into the roots of the matter, not just keep on trimming the branches.

My appologies. I agree that what you said is relevant to the thread. However that was not my purpose in using the word. My argument is that only a small percentage of these offenders are what could genuinely be called sick and thus not entirely responsible for their actions. Maybe meditation techniques could work for them I dont know. The majority are not sick tho. And they need jailing for good. They dont want help and cannot be helped. With the best will in the world you cant do anything about that. We continualy release them back into society after ridiculosly short 'punishments' where they almost invariably re-offend. My point was that this is unacceptable.

If the guru's you speak of were so effective why dont we see a huge body of eveidence to support them? With all they did a cure here and a cure there. So what? There are tens of thousands of child preditors in the UK alone. So what you speak of is idealistic dreaming and not an effective solution to keeping our children safe.

Any gardner will tell you that a very effective method of keeping things healthy is to cut out the diseased and rotting. So i disagree with you there.

TE

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

The majority are not sick tho. And they need jailing for good. They dont want help and cannot be helped. With the best will in the world you cant do anything about that. We continualy release them back into society after ridiculosly short 'punishments' where they almost invariably re-offend. My point was that this is unacceptable.

And how do you know ? Is it because you saw some films of some incorrigible paedophiliacs who are painted evil so the audience can hate him and love it when the hero thrashes the villain.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

If the guru's you speak of were so effective why dont we see a huge body of eveidence to support them? With all they did a cure here and a cure there. So what? There are tens of thousands of child preditors in the UK alone. So what you speak of is idealistic dreaming and not an effective solution to keeping our children safe..

And indeed I posted material and the link vipassana to show that it is effective. And many tests have indeed shown that this stuff is effective.
Here is a sample.

Transcendental Meditation (TM) Scientific Research studies

Meditation Experiment Arrests Crime

Crime Prevention and Rehabilitation

ISTPP: Crime Prevention


There is evidence, and that is why meditation and yoga are indeed being very popular all over the world for its physical , mental , emotional, intellectual and spiritual benefits.

It is a rage now in america and elsewhere with millions practicing hatha yoga.

In fact when hatha yoga first made its appearance in the U.S., it was termed by the christian fundamentalists as the 'devils exercises.'

Now because of its great popularity, and with scientific research backing it all the way, the same christian fundamentalists conveniently changed their stance , and adopted yoga with a new name 'christian yoga ' , where yogic exercises are practiced with chanting the verses of the bible.

From ' devils exercises' to christian yoga. What an irony!


The same thing happened when the indian numeral system came to europe. The pope then condemned it as the 'devils numbers'.

Later on these same 'devils numbers' became the base and foundation of western science and technology.

As Albert Einstein said, " We have to be grateful to the Indians for teaching us how to count without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

It is very probable that if the Indian numeral system did not come to europe, europe would still have been in the dark ages.

'Devils exercises', 'devils numbers', what next!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Any gardner will tell you that a very effective method of keeping things healthy is to cut out the diseased and rotting. So i disagree with you there.
TE

Indeed, do they trim the weeds as well !

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by niranjan

And how do you know ? Is it because you saw some films of some incorrigible paedophiliacs who are painted evil so the audience can hate him and love it when the hero thrashes the villain.

No. I know it for several reasons. Amongst them being myself a victim of sexual assault at a young age and having a good freind who, with her sister were the victims in a high profile case here in Edinburgh. As it has touched my life I tend to keep reasonably well read on the subject.

Maybe you dont agree thats up to you. You personaly seem to have an almost amusing self- belief in thinking you understand the minds of people who post on these threads. Increasingly it becomes apparent tho that you cant see beyond your own Ego.

And indeed I posted material and the link vipassana to show that it is effective. And many tests have indeed shown that this stuff is effective.
Here is a sample.

Transcendental Meditation (TM) Scientific Research studies

Meditation Experiment Arrests Crime

Crime Prevention and Rehabilitation

ISTPP: Crime Prevention


There is evidence, and that is why meditation and yoga are indeed being very popular all over the world for its physical , mental , emotional, intellectual and spiritual benefits.

It is a rage now in america and elsewhere with millions practicing hatha yoga.

In fact when hatha yoga first made its appearance in the U.S., it was termed by the christian fundamentalists as the 'devils exercises.'

Now because of its great popularity, and with scientific research backing it all the way, the same christian fundamentalists conveniently changed their stance , and adopted yoga with a new name 'christian yoga ' , where yogic exercises are practiced with chanting the verses of the bible.

From ' devils exercises' to christian yoga. What an irony!


The same thing happened when the indian numeral system came to europe. The pope then condemned it as the 'devils numbers'.

Later on these same 'devils numbers' became the base and foundation of western science and technology.

As Albert Einstein said, " We have to be grateful to the Indians for teaching us how to count without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

It is very probable that if the Indian numeral system did not come to europe, europe would still have been in the dark ages.

'Devils exercises', 'devils numbers', what next!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry but you support my point here not yours. They are as I said citing a few individual cases. This would be like throwing a cup of water at a forest fire. Just because they highlight their successes in a few individual cases does not make it appropriate for treatment for large numbers of child predators. And it is interesting to note that they make no report as to the failures.

As for the western adoption of meditative yoga so what? It has no bearing on the question. By far the vast majority of users are those well educated middle class liberal proffesionals who are into 'self-improvement'. And I just cant for the life of me see how this links in.

I travelled India for 9 months from Kerala in the south right up into the Himalaya. I love India and I recognise fully what contribution it makes and has made to humanity. But also I saw the poverty and exploitation of Mumbai, Delhi, Madrass and Calcutta. India is not perfect by any means. For all India has taught the world to count, as you put it, it has not been able to count the Dalit as equals. I respect your pride in your great country, truly I do, but it gets a bit tiresome hearing it in almost every post you make.

Indeed, do they trim the weeds as well !

No they pull them right out and throw them in the compost bin to rot.

TE

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Trying to link a condition like Tourettes with those of child rapists is an utterly ridiculous notion.

Who was trying to link them? I was merely saying that some mental illnesses have uncontrollable side effects. I accept that a majority of these people are not mentally ill in the true sense of the term but I was wondering if some were, due to the ones that ask to be castrated or never released from prison. Most of the monsters have no remorse and use the old "who is society to set age limits" excuse in court but I was exploring whether those that are aware what they are doing is wrong and want to stop but do not trust themselves - is that due to a true mental illness with uncontrollable side effects?

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

No. I know it for several reasons. Amongst them being myself a victim of sexual assault at a young age and having a good freind who, with her sister were the victims in a high profile case here in Edinburgh. As it has touched my life I tend to keep reasonably well read on the subject.

I myself when I was a kid , was a victim of sexual assualt , and I indeed had a loathing and hatred against these guys, but at the same time I could see that these guys were acting according to their beliefs and passions. Perhaps if they were brought up in a different way, they indeed could have been better people.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Sorry but you support my point here not yours. They are as I said citing a few individual cases. This would be like throwing a cup of water at a forest fire. Just because they highlight their successes in a few individual cases does not make it appropriate for treatment for large numbers of child predators. And it is interesting to note that they make no report as to the failures..

And how is it a few cases when there are a lot of successful tests and results in these links.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

As for the western adoption of meditative yoga so what? It has no bearing on the question. By far the vast majority of users are those well educated middle class liberal proffesionals who are into 'self-improvement'. And I just cant for the life of me see how this links in.

Understand the context, I am saying that if children can study meditation and the essentials of mind control , they can indeed turn out to be well disciplined people.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I travelled India for 9 months from Kerala in the south right up into the Himalaya. I love India and I recognise fully what contribution it makes and has made to humanity.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But also I saw the poverty and exploitation of Mumbai, Delhi, Madrass and Calcutta.

And who do you think is responsible for the poverty of India. There was no poverty at all in India till the British invasion. The forbes magazine stated India to be the richest nation in the world in the 16 th century. Why on earth do you think Colombus was after us.

It was the British invasion and the subsequent ruthless exploitation of India that reduced India from the richest nation in the world to one of the poorest nations on earth. The cottage industries in India were ruthlessy destroyed by the British. I know of women weavers in India, that produced valuable cloth, and whose fingers were chopped off by the british troops so that they will not be able to weave again, and hence they committed suicide.

Millions of Indians died in India due to the famines created by the British due to their rules which were focussed on producing goods that served the british market. Remember the INDIGO famine.

And also the British created the Macaulays education programme in India, which was systematically designed to curb Indian nationalism by underrating Indian achievements, and charecterising indian sages as fools . After all, they did not want to lose India, the Jewel in the British crown.

As Karl Marx said, "Divorce a people from their heritage ,and they will be easy to persuade. " And the cunning britishers expoited this fact to their advantage.

It was Vivekananda , who first criticized Macaulays education programme, and saw through its cunning, and it was his disciples, Gandhi and Bose, who made India independent and , as I stated before, provided a role model to the other African and Asian nations under the heel of western imperialism and colonialism, and eventually brought the sun down on the materialistic and imperialistic British empire.

Unfortunately the effects of Macaulays education persist still to this day, much to the disadvantage of India, and the whole world.

And by the time we thrashed the Britishers out of India, we had become emaciated due to all the blood sucked out of us by them, and we had to start from scratch again.

And I am happy to say that India indeed is becoming an economic power again, as shown by the economists.

The IT revolution has created millions of jobs in India, and created thousands of millionaires ( dollar terms) . Azim Premji of Wipro is the 10 th richest man in the world at the moment, a billionaire.

The Steel King , Lakshmi Das Mittal, is the 5th richest man in the world, with assets of 40 billion dollars. Silicon Valley itself boasts of 1 million Indian millionaires.

India became a trillion dollar economy , a few days back, one of the few countries in the world to do so. Thousands of new millionaires(dollar terms)are coming up in India with each passing year.

We have the 2nd largest pool of scientists and engineers in the world , after the U.S., and the way our government is building engineering and science colleges and universities all over India, within a few years , we will trespass the U.S. as well.

And this is only going to improve. Economists have stated that India will be earning 100 billion dollars in IT by 2010. And the same with the BPO, KPO, biotechnology, pharmaceutical, and other sectors as well, which are going great guns.Research has shown that after the economic reforms of 1990 , poverty in India has reduced considerably, and if we go in this way, we can indeed eradicate poverty in India completely in a span of time. And we indeed have positives, like good leadership at the moment, the genetic potential that comes with an ancient civilization, and good work ethics in our scriptures.

The future indeed is promising.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

For all India has taught the world to count, as you put it, it has not been able to count the Dalit as equals. I respect your pride in your great country, truly I do, but it gets a bit tiresome hearing it in almost every post you make.
.

And how do you know about this. What a vague statement that India is not counting the dalits as equals. Do you know that the constitution of India was created by a dalit. And dalits are given the lions share of reservations in the public sector jobs, and in universities and colleges. They have indeed come up well, and many dalits are affluent now. There are many inter-caste marriages itself taking place between dalits and other castes . The arya samaj, the hindu organisation based on the vedas, which do not sanction the caste system and other hindu spiritual organisations are responsible for the rampant inter-caste marriages taking place in India, and which is increasing exponentially.

I have stated about this in a previous post of mine. We also had a dalit president in K.R.Narayan, and many dalit chief ministers and ministers.

There are strict laws in India to eradicate caste discrimination and many idiots who have violated these laws have been arrested and prosecuted.
The so-called violations happen in some rural areas , which are not effectively under the jurisdiction of the police. And even then , things are changing in this direction as well,due to the efforts of the media and the hindu spiritual organisations.

Also the rapidly growing economy of India will ensure that the police forces will be modernised and effective, both qualitatively and quantitatively , along with a more effective judiciary as well.

And I know all these myself, because I am from the shudra caste myself, a so-called 'untouchable'.

And our own caste have produced many hindu enlightened masters , which I have pointed out in a previous post , and who in a way ,can be seen as true representatives of Hinduism as well.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

No they pull them right out and throw them in the compost bin to rot.

That is my point Tao. Get rid of the plant by the roots, instead of trimming them .

Similarly , instead of merely arresting these paedophiles , and filling the prisons with them, go to the root of the problem as I suggested , and make sure that none of them are created in the first place.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Who was trying to link them? I was merely saying that some mental illnesses have uncontrollable side effects. I accept that a majority of these people are not mentally ill in the true sense of the term but I was wondering if some were, due to the ones that ask to be castrated or never released from prison. Most of the monsters have no remorse and use the old "who is society to set age limits" excuse in court but I was exploring whether those that are aware what they are doing is wrong and want to stop but do not trust themselves - is that due to a true mental illness with uncontrollable side effects?

I think of course that a percentage are mentaly ill. A deep psychosis is never curable and only at best partialy treatable. There is always a high risk of relapse. Hence my veiw these individuals too are simply too high risk to allow complete freedom and anonymity within society. They also tend to be the more dangerous opportunists, as opposed to groomers, and are far more likely to murder their victim(s).

Quote Niranjan:
Similarly , instead of merely arresting these paedophiles , and filling the prisons with them, go to the root of the problem as I suggested , and make sure that none of them are created in the first place.

I think your argument naive. In a family of 3 children brought up by caring loving parents in exactly the same way not all children become clones of each other. Individuality will always express itself no matter what brainwashing (and I do not use that word pejoratively despite its conotations), you may try. There are always bad apples.

I do not doubt the benefits that yoga and other meditation techniques can bring the individual when they are sought and embraced by that individual. However the imposition of any regime will always throw up a percentage of kick-backs. To think otherwise is to deny common ssense and basic observation.

TE

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I think your argument naive. In a family of 3 children brought up by caring loving parents in exactly the same way not all children become clones of each other. Individuality will always express itself no matter what brainwashing (and I do not use that word pejoratively despite its conotations), you may try. There are always bad apples.

I do not doubt the benefits that yoga and other meditation techniques can bring the individual when they are sought and embraced by that individual. However the imposition of any regime will always throw up a percentage of kick-backs. To think otherwise is to deny common ssense and basic observation.

TE

You said in your previous post that you are not going to talk to me, and now you have given a new post to me. Ha.

And how is it naive, all people indeed have a mind and brain and character, though they may be vastly different from each other. And it has been noted by psychologists that nurture plays a more crucial role indeed in moulding the child. Many physically healthy children indeed came out to be neurotic or psychotic in later life , due to child abuse and stuff.

And many physically unhealthy children , due to the attention given to them by parents , dedicated teachers and stuff, came up to be decent and productive people.

So environment does indeed play a vital and important role. Hence, meditation and mind control and yoga indeed should be taught to all children at a young age, as Vivekananda taught. It doesn't need to be an imposition of a regime . Many chilren themselves practice it with enthusiasm. And if they are briefed on the advantages that mind control can bring about, I am sure all of them will be interested in it. Because every child indeed wants to become a hero, or a superman.

Education is compulsory for all children in many countries. Does that make it a regime or something !!!!!!!!!

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by niranjan

You said in your previous post that you are not going to talk to me, and now you have given a new post to me. Ha.

And how is it naive, all people indeed have a mind and brain and character, though they may be vastly different from each other. And it has been noted by psychologists that nurture plays a more crucial role indeed in moulding the child. Many physically healthy children indeed came out to be neurotic or psychotic in later life , due to child abuse and stuff.

And many physically unhealthy children , due to the attention given to them by parents , dedicated teachers and stuff, came up to be decent and productive people.

So environment does indeed play a vital and important role. Hence, meditation and mind control and yoga indeed should be taught to all children at a young age, as Vivekananda taught. It doesn't need to be an imposition of a regime . Many chilren themselves practice it with enthusiasm. And if they are briefed on the advantages that mind control can bring about, I am sure all of them will be interested in it. Because every child indeed wants to become a hero, or a superman.

Education is compulsory for all children in many countries. Does that make it a regime or something !!!!!!!!!

If you cant see what I am saying, which is very very simple to understand, then saying anything else on the matter to you will be an excersise in futility.

Despite your efforts of a racist nature in starting a new thread in the guise of standing up for the aboriginal peoples of Australia, and your continuing vitriol for anyone who presents anything other than your own veiws, I will decide when and where and what I post..... not you.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

If you cant see what I am saying, which is very very simple to understand, then saying anything else on the matter to you will be an excersise in futility. .

I have presented my logical argument too in this debate, and you have not given a logical reply for it. Hence you can say it indeed is an exercise in futility for you to support your argument.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Despite your efforts of a racist nature in starting a new thread in the guise of standing up for the aboriginal peoples of Australia,

And why not, I know what the 'gentlemanly' britishers have done in all the continents. Are you saying that highlighting the racist persecution of the aborginals by the britishers in australia, (which the whole world knows) by me is racist. That indeed is great 'logic.'

And coming from you, I am not surprised.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by niranjan

I have presented my logical argument too in this debate, and you have not given a logical reply for it. Hence you can say it indeed is an exercise in futility for you to support your argument.




And why not, I know what the 'gentlemanly' britishers have done in all the continents. Are you saying that highlighting the racist persecution of the aborginals by the britishers in australia, (which the whole world knows) by me is racist. That indeed is great 'logic.'

And coming from you, I am not surprised.

No I am saying you started it to promote your own racist agenda. 'Britishers' whatever they are, do not rule Australia. Australians do.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

No I am saying you started it to promote your own racist agenda.

We indeed do have a moral responsibility to end British imperialism in the world. And we owe this to the victims of British imperialism in India , our martyrs who fought against the British, and all the victims of British imperialism in all the continents.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

'Britishers' whatever they are, do not rule Australia. Australians do.

And who do you think the 'australian whites' who rule Australia are !!!!!!!!!!

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by niranjan

We indeed do have a moral responsibility to end British imperialism in the world. And we owe this to the victims of British imperialism in India , our martyrs who fought against the British, and all the victims of British imperialism in all the continents.

Wakey wakey!!! The "British Empire" is dead...no more.....gone......finito!!

And who do you think the 'australian whites' who rule Australia are !!!!!!!!!!

I told you already "Australians"

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Wakey wakey!!! The "British Empire" is dead...no more.....gone......finito!!

And I wonder why New Zealand ( which belongs to the maoris) , Australia( which belongs to the aborginals) and Canada( which belong to the canadian indians) are still considered as subjects of your 'beautiful' queen.

Why don't you give it back to them like the gentlemen you claim yourselves to be, and compensate for the atrocities you guys committed against these people . That would be a religious, and moral thing to do. And if you don't do that, don't expect the world to consider yourself as gentlemen , humane and moral people , even though you insist that you are.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I told you already "Australians"

Yeah, and I wonder why the australian prime minister, upon being elected, have to go all the way to Britain to present himself before the queen.

Do you see the french prime minister or japanese prime minister upon election, going to the british queen .

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by niranjan

Why don't you give it back to them like the gentlemen you claim yourselves to be, and compensate for the atrocities you guys committed against these people . That would be a religious, and moral thing to do. And if you don't do that, don't expect the world to consider yourself as gentlemen , humane and moral people , even though you insist that you are.

oooooh shut up......

Read into our country more than this... Just a brief look on a wiki we have done thousands of amazing and good things, so if you want to continue on this route make a thread relevant about it instead of this thread.. Then STUDY and read about our country the read and study about your own country and other countries... and lets see how bad our country truly is......

We are one of the most human countries there is.... You are bringing up past... OH LETS GO AND HATE THE GERMANS!! Because of the Nazi's!!

Forgive and forget! that was like WWII long time ago...

NO THEY STILL MUST PAY LET'S GET UM.....