Alternative Christian Awakenings - Page 2

ISFP · 04-25-2005, 06:21 PM

hey, all

i was raised Lutheran, but never really fell in with the beliefs preached there. i didn't agree with the deification of Jesus (i generally saw this as an excuse to worship as opposed to being like him), and i disliked the amount of emphasis placed on the human experience, as i was very much drawn to the natural world.

so pretty much i went to church for years in hopes of hearing a really nice hymn.

i'd been privately rejecting much of Chritian doctrine for a while when my dad died. this pretty much cinched it for me at ten. i could not understand why a personal, loving god would strike down a guy like my father and leave my mom all alone with three kids and all that grief. i figured that it was silly to try to attribute bad things to a god who just knows better than we do.

so for about ten years after, i believed vaguely in a "something", a spiritual element to the universe that gave life and took it away. kind of like the Tao. i studied various religious paths (like Buddhism, Islam, and Pantheism) but none of them really fit. still, i learned alot of cool stuff.

when i got off to college (grudgingly- i wanted to get a job out of high school like my friends and didn't much see "the point" of going to school) i discovered Quakerism. it felt right, and i loved the Quaker community. i also loved the fact that there was real emphasis on changing things for the better and following Jesus' example, not just praying to him and hoping god'll take care of the important stuff. the permission for fluidity of personal belief also appealed to me. some Quakers are Christians, others believe in a Unitarian god, while others are agnostics.

so, that's about it up to now.

truthseeker · 04-25-2005, 07:41 PM

Praise God.

I spoke in another thread how I was raised in the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Love message of Jesus that was meant for all mankind was not preached there as much as the wrath of Jehovah on all that were not in 'the truth' and the truth of the destruction of Satan's rule on earth and Jehovah's new paradise that arises from the ruins of fire and brimstone that destroys everyone but Jehovah's Witnesses. Terrifying message for me as a kid. I grew up thinking that nothing is good and every thought I had that was outside of the Watchtower and Awake! and the New World Translation was damning me to hell. My first heartbreak was Jehovah's wrath on me because my boyfriend and I were unequally yoked.

Strange thing about some organizations is that it teaches the people a message about how God is and then the organization leaves you to ponder issues of every day life, things that all humankind experiences. I've often wondered if these extreme views are meant to control the thought pattern of the followers. I don't think Jesus was like that.

Anyway, my first year of college left me flunked out of college but completely tuned into the library. Since then I've studied some of the different religions of mankind, ancient and modern, the history of the different Bible versions, read the old testament in three different versions, read the Apocrypha, and I am now slowly studying the New Testament in four different versions. I've studied some Latin and will be soon studying Hebrew.

I guess my goal is to understand Christianity inside and out. I believe Christianity is a whole and I don't really support denominational Christianity because Jesus was not an extremist. I didn't really know Jesus as I was growing up because I was to fearful of letting my mind wander from the concept of the JWs. Through the Gospels I was able to see that Jesus' message was one of Love. I like that. It doesn't make me feel like I have to fight with anybody to accept the message. Anybody who wants to submit themselves to Love has to do so with a humble heart and pride pulled away from thier vision. A man who commits his life to his riches cannot get into the Kingdom of God because there is no reciprocation in love of riches. Love takes constant humility and I have become a better person in my understanding of the message and my seeking to further understand the message.

There are alot of Jesus warriors out there. I would never want to tamper with anyone's need to be closer to God but I think that if these people really looked into the things that Jesus said - not only for condemnation - it could humble our hearts quite a bit. I am tolerant of the religions that I have studied because we all mostly have the same idea, just understood in different fashions - but you understand when you understand the ways that different cultures communicate. Anyway, I am a God-child. I have a testimony that never gets old because God is constantly breaking me and making me over new. He keeps revealing his wisdom everywhere. The Love of God helps me see the common ground where I once was locked up into believing that the world was going to soon be destroyed in fire and brimstone. Not to say that this isn't true, but I just have something to live for now, you know?

lunamoth · 04-25-2005, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Anyway, I am a God-child. I have a testimony that never gets old because God is constantly breaking me and making me over new. He keeps revealing his wisdom everywhere.

Another wow.

You people here are amazing me.

lunamoth

path_of_one · 04-26-2005, 07:36 PM

That is beautiful, Truthseeker.

InLove · 05-06-2005, 11:23 PM

This is my favorite thread in all of this forum. I hope it never closes.

With all my heart, I intend to testify here at some point, but I am so uplifted, touched, made aware by everyone's comments that I just want to continue reading for a while.

InPeace,
InLove

chsharif · 08-11-2005, 07:19 AM

Abogado del Diablo

Professional Iconoclast

Dear Sir
your post dated 04/23/2005 on the subject is referred.I am a new member.I find following points in your post very interesting:-
"

I believe in miracles, despite being a scientist, but I think we often are called to make miracles for others.
I consider myself a mythologist.
For myself, it was a long process (another ten years) during which I completely walked away from Christianity because I did not approve of how evangelical Christianity (in my experience) made people view and treat others."

I am an Ahmadi ( a faith in Islam).I know persons in my faith who also have had such experiences i.e dreams,visions and miracles and are guided by such experiences.How would you view their experiences?Personally I don't have any such experience worth mentioning.

Also please let me know as to what you mean by"Professional Iconoclast".

Yours
chsharif

chsharif · 08-11-2005, 07:52 AM

"Since then I've studied some of the different religions of mankind, ancient and modern, the history of the different Bible versions, read the old testament in three different versions, read the Apocrypha, and I am now slowly studying the New Testament in four different versions. I've studied some Latin and will be soon studying Hebrew."

Dear Truthseeker
God bless you.You are making a lot of effort for religion and truth.May Allah (God) guide you to the right path.
Thanks
chsharif

Abogado del Diablo · 08-12-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chsharif

Abogado del Diablo

Professional Iconoclast

Dear Sir
your post dated 04/23/2005 on the subject is referred.I am a new member.I find following points in your post very interesting:-

Thanks. But the first statement - about miracles - is not mine.

The other two statements are a lead in to my longer post I wrote later in this thread (#5 or #6, I think) about how I view the meaning of Christianity for myself.

My personal conclusion is that to attempt to read a religious text literally is to completely miss out on its value. The meaning in the myth is what really matters and what connects us to one another.

As far as my conclusions about Orthodox or Evangelical Christianity, I ultimately decided that these do not ring true to me specifically because of their misguided and myopic focus on reading texts literally and missing the meaning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chsharif

Also please let me know as to what you mean by"Professional Iconoclast".

Yours
chsharif

It means I try to get past the icons, myths and symbols in culture (not just religious myth and symbolism) to find their meaning and understand how icons are used by people. I pay very careful attention to the subtleties of language and how people respond to symbols and ideas.

Curios Mike · 08-13-2005, 02:38 PM

WOW..... Its good to see I'm not the only one. I want to share mine but right now my wife is riding me and my son has a b-day party. I"ve only made it through path to one and Abogado del Diablo(which by the way what does this mean) Mines similer but different... I have went to school to find somethingelse but deeper in the bible and other writings... LOL and Conspiracy theories. Anyways So far I've enjoy this topic. Gotta get goin Post later

.

Saltmeister · 08-13-2005, 05:01 PM

Hello, guys. I'm new to this forum and what I've read is quite interesting!!!!

Actually, I'm not sure what this "Alternative Christian" or mystic Christian stuff is, but I am curious to know. I attend a Baptist church and you could probably term me a "mainstream" and "denominational" Christian in the sense that I am part of a particular denomination.

Path of One, I don't mean to be personal, but I was surprised to find you here. I didn't know you were "Christian."

On the thread "Is the Bible written by God or man?" where I "tried" to explain why God would order the killing of the Canaanites, no matter what I said you didn't agree with me. I got the impression you weren't "Christian."

If Alternative Christianity is a kind of Christianity that doesn't include the Old Testament, and has things like the Gospel of Thomas or Gospel of Barnabas then I would understand where you're coming from.

Anyway . . .

As a Christian, I would believe in the what many of you have talked about, that it shouldn't matter what "doctrines" you believe in. However, what I do believe, is that you must believe that Christ is the Second Adam and offers a path of holiness back to God.

I don't know if that's where our differences lie -- that you must believe in the Second Adam.

Although I attend a Baptist church, I wouldn't agree with "being called" a Baptist. In the sermons I attend, very little is said about doctrine. We simply say we have a relationship with God. I do, however, consider myself part of the congregation, which is part of the Body of Christ, part of God's Kingdom.

I don't consider myself a follower of any "creed" other than the Christian Gospel. This means that I wouldn't support the claim of a Baptist Church being the one true church over Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, Assemblies of God, Church of Christ, etc.

Actually, Baptist churches have local leadership, which means that the leader of a congregation is entitled to make his own views on Christianity, but is simply trained, guided and brought up to lead in a certain way. The Baptist churches around the world, I believe, provide supportive environments where people can be guided and mentored in the Christian faith.

Instead of following doctrines, we are mentored in our faith and spiritual journey.

On the other hand, I'm not too fond of the idea of Christian worship being centered in a public building. I think it would be much better if we had more meetings in "house churches" -- small gatherings of Christians. It makes things more close and personal. It is sort of happening in today's Christian communities with Bible study groups. I just think that gathering in public buildings should be a sign of unity in the Christian community, but not the focus of Christian worship.

As with false teachings, I do believe it is right to believe that there are "false teachings," but not "false doctrines." I do not consider the Christian Gospel a system of dogma, but a story. I see the Christian Gospel as the True Story of God's Creation. It follows that a "false teacher" is one who doesn't tell the True Story correctly, or rather than a person who preaches "false dogma."

The apostles in the Epistles weren't warning us against "false doctrine" but distorted concepts of the True Story.

I believe that the concept of the Trinity is true, but just that there is no such thing as "The Doctrine of the Trinity." I believe in "the Story of the Trinity" as explained in the New Testament, but not the doctrine. Stories are more powerful than doctrines, and these are the things we should believe in.

What led me to this thread was curiosity. As a Christian I believe that I am taking a spiritual journey to God's Kingdom and that this journey is along a path opened by Christ's atoning sacrifice.

I believe that life is about rituals. It is about reinforcing our good instincts (virtues) like love, patience, kindness, generosity, humility, etc. and withdrawing from our evil instincts (vices) like hatred, arrogance, selfishness, greed, lust, etc. These things are the rituals we perform. The idea is for our rituals to be holy rituals. It is for our sentiments, desires and passions to be holy.

This is why there is so much stuff on so-called "ritual cleanliness" in the Old and New Testaments.

We live by faith, hope and love. These things are not supposed to mean that we're "superior" to those around us, but are merely things that help us to survive in our spiritual journey. It's like food and water.

You reap what you sow. What goes round comes round. By following your good instincts you make the people you live with more agreeable to live with. Follow you evil instincts and you cause hatred, iniquity and wickedness to come even from those closest to you.

These aren't doctrines, they're just concepts of the reality you live in.

I believe the Christians in my congregation would support my view. However, I've felt myself getting a bit "too close to nature" because of the view I've had above. It's a view I've developed by reading, reading and reading the Bible, especially the Epistles.

I asked myself the question, have I become a mystic?

I've been brought up in a world of "secular and formal reality" based on systems of morals, ethics, dogma, ideology, formality and protocols. I simply felt the Christian Gospel wasn't about that.

path_of_one · 08-13-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Hello, guys. I'm new to this forum and what I've read is quite interesting!!!!

Hello to you, as well, and welcome to CR!

Quote:

Actually, I'm not sure what this "Alternative Christian" or mystic Christian stuff is, but I am curious to know. I attend a Baptist church and you could probably term me a "mainstream" and "denominational" Christian in the sense that I am part of a particular denomination.

I think we're just talking about experiencing Christianity in a non-mainstream way; many of us also go to mainstream churches. Mysticism in any religion is simply direct experience of the divine and ongoing personal revelation. So Christian mystics experience God personally and directly, and feel that His revelation to them can be known in a direct manner. Mystics often still go to church and value study of sacred texts as well, but believe that God interacts with them directly- no church, doctrine, priest/minister, etc. is necessary.

Quote:

Path of One, I don't mean to be personal, but I was surprised to find you here. I didn't know you were "Christian."

On the thread "Is the Bible written by God or man?" where I "tried" to explain why God would order the killing of the Canaanites, no matter what I said you didn't agree with me. I got the impression you weren't "Christian."

No problem. I am a Christian as I believe Jesus Christ is my Lord and my Light. His teachings guide me in following the path of peace, love, and joy. I'm also a modern Druid. If you look at my Christian Druidry post in the Alternative section, you'll get a sense of the two combined for me, that is- if you're curious.

I am not a Christian in the sense of buying into a lot of the doctrine that various churches propogate. I believe the important thing in reading the Bible is understanding, as AdD puts it, the meaning behind the myth. (And I don't mean "myth" in the sense of false stories- I mean it in the anthropological sense- a sacred narrative.) Many churches I have gone to tend to focus on the literal story, and spend a lot of time discussing whether or not certain events happened, how miracles could have occurred, etc.- for example, "proving" a seven-day creation and such. If that works for others' spirituality, I would encourage them in that path, but it doesn't work for me. I'm not concerned with those questions. I'm concerned with experiencing God and understanding what the Bible means for my life right now, the truths it points to for uniting my spirit with God.

As for the discussion about the Canaanites, my experience of God is that He would never dictate killing children as acceptable or righteous behavior, nor the wholesale slaughter of animals, nor the mass murder of any cultural or ethnic group. I know it is in the Bible, but I do not believe the Bible is infallible. I believe it is inspired, and that there is a difference between "inspired by" and "written/inscribed by". I must first honor my personal relationship with God and the guidance I receive from the Holy Spirit when I ponder questions of morality, in my own life or in attempting to make a judgment about past events. Secondly, I must honor my God-given sense of logic and my knowledge gained as an anthropologist- for rational thought, science, and theory are also gifts humanity has been given by God. Nothing in either strain has ever indicated to me that my God would order mass killings of a group for any reason. We can call it "ritual cleansing," but by definition it is genocide- the extermination of a specific ethnic or cultural group. "Genocide" defines the action, not the motivation. My God and my Christ have ever indicated to me that killing (even killing plants and animals) is wrong without need for personal and immediate self-defense or survival (food). I do not think God changes, but I do think people's perception of God does. From both the historical and anthropological evidence, as well as from my own spiritual experience, I cannot agree that the wholesale killing of any group is justified or would be promoted by God.

Christians often disagree with one another. There's a lot to interpret in the Bible, and much of our personal experience of God and our faith to also guide us. Disagreement, however, does not mean one or the other is not following Christ. Over time, you'll probably find some cases in which we agree as well, though I fully admit I tend to march to a rather distinctly different drummer!

Quote:

If Alternative Christianity is a kind of Christianity that doesn't include the Old Testament, and has things like the Gospel of Thomas or Gospel of Barnabas then I would understand where you're coming from.

This depends on who you talk to here. I include the OT, though I don't accept the meaning of the Bible as a literal and infallible text. I believe much is symbolic of greater meaning, and also must be interpreted with the guidance of the Spirit as well as the findings we have from archaeology, history, and such. I am open to other Christian writings such as the Gospel of Thomas, if the Spirit indicates to me that they are inspired. I am not open to all texts- I've read some that just didn't resonate at all with my experience of God and Christ.

Quote:

I don't know if that's where our differences lie -- that you must believe in the Second Adam.

I don't really think about it that way, which can certainly mean you may categorize me as non-Christian. In the end, none of our categories matter, really. It is only God who knows the heart. Honestly, I don't think following Christ is about what we think about him, but rather what we do with our relationship with Him. After all, the very demons know He is the son of God. I think what makes one Christian is to acknowledge Christ as the Light that illuminates our path, and to take His teachings as our guide- to "take up the cross, and follow Him." Thus, I don't think spirituality is about beliefs as much as it's about what we do with our beliefs. No doubt, with the fallibility of the human mind, none of us really have a solid grasp of the true nature of God. It is the striving to know Him, to cultivate a relationship with Him, to become more loving, more peaceful, more joyful, more compassionate... that matters. At least, that is my belief.

In the words of St. Columba: "My Druid is Christ, the son of God, Christ, the son of Mary, the Great Abbot, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost." Christ is friend to those in need of a friend. Savior to those who need saving. Teacher, philosopher, mentor, and guide to those who need teaching. Comforter to those who need comfort. I believe it matters not the need we recognize at any moment in our soul, the need that brings us to Christ. What matters is that we turn toward God and ask Christ to guide us on our journey.

Quote:

On the other hand, I'm not too fond of the idea of Christian worship being centered in a public building. I think it would be much better if we had more meetings in "house churches" -- small gatherings of Christians. It makes things more close and personal.

I agree. I've attended a few "mega" churches with thousands of people, and it just isn't for me. It's very impersonal feeling. Aside from the issue of the monetary support it takes to support the giant building, PA systems, etc. That's OK for others, but I just prefer smaller groups and more money going toward charity. I like the way the Amish meet in different families' barns each week. Druids, when they get together, just meet at someone's house, a public park, or out in wilderness. I wish church worked that way. I feel more connected to God outside in the world He created anyway. Still looking for that unique church that meets outside...

Quote:

Stories are more powerful than doctrines, and these are the things we should believe in.

Very interesting- the whole discussion of doctrine v. teaching. I think there is the danger of both. Doctrine happens when people interpret a story/myth one particular way (outside of the obvious) and then assign certain characteristics to God, cosmology, etc. based on this interpretation. I can go into detail, but I don't think this is the thread for it. I think there is no correct doctrine- it's all false, or more suitably, incomplete- including my own. We can think of doctrine as the analysis of myth- the higher level deductions we make from the myths we believe are sacred. As such, all doctrine will be limited by our minds and incomplete. I believe it is the journey of experiencing God and His guidance, through the interpretation of the stories, that is key. Myth guides us in an exploration of God, our world, and ourselves. This is why I feel it is very good for people to form their own doctrine- their own analysis- from the sacred text rather than just adopt one of the ready-made ones out there without a good deal of thought and prayer. False teaching would be, as you put it, to tell the story incorrectly. I too believe the story is more powerful than the doctrine, but to believe in the story is not necessarily to believe in it as literal (like reading the newspaper) but rather to alternatively (or additionally) believe in its meaning. Sacred stories are always about the meaning and not just the story itself.

Quote:

I believe that life is about rituals. The idea is for our rituals to be holy rituals. It is for our sentiments, desires and passions to be holy.
You reap what you sow. What goes round comes round. By following your good instincts you make the people you live with more agreeable to live with. Follow you evil instincts and you cause hatred, iniquity and wickedness to come even from those closest to you.

I agree, with the caveat that life isn't about ritual, but rather about action. I think, after reading a few posts, you really mean action rather than ritual. It could be that we are talking past one another.

Ritual, in anthropology, has a very specific meaning. It is action that is social (it can't just be your own, but must be shared in a group), has a set liturgical order (it is planned ahead of time with a particular order to it), is formal and stylized, and occurs at set times and places. An example in Christianity is communion. Everyday life doesn't qualify as ritual. I think you mean that life is about your actions, and making your actions holy and righteous, and that if we fail to produce good actions, we can cause further iniquity that manifests beyond ourselves. Am I interpreting your statement correctly, or did you literally mean ritual specifically, as in ritual action like communion, Mass, baptism, etc.?

Quote:

I've felt myself getting a bit "too close to nature" because of the view I've had above.

I'm just curious what you mean by this. I'm not sure I understand it.

Neat conversation, by the way, and I love this thread. It is really interesting and uplifting to read about people's faiths.

Peace to you (and to all)

Abogado del Diablo · 08-13-2005, 08:35 PM

In my view, anytime ANY doctrine gets in the way of tolerance, love and communion, it is false. So it really doesn't matter to me whether Jesus is the Second Adam. That doesn't define being "Christian."

Being Christian means being found by the great Mystery, which you can read all about in the authentic Pauline epistles. Once you have awakened to the Mystery, you will be open to experience the Gospel and your eyes and ears will be opened to the Truth of Jesus.

That awakening is the Second Coming of Christ, and it's true that it comes like a thief in the night.

Abogado del Diablo · 08-13-2005, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

Abogado del Diablo(which by the way what does this mean)

It's Spanish for "Devil's Advocate."

Bandit · 08-13-2005, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

In my view, anytime ANY doctrine gets in the way of tolerance, love and communion, it is false. So it really doesn't matter to me whether Jesus is the Second Adam. That doesn't define being "Christian."

i TOTALLY agree. doctrine doctrine doctrine. everyone has a doctrine to shove in everyones face & if you dont believe they way they do you are a false doctrine. all it has ever done is create seperation, hate, war & murder & i dont think anyone of us has it right, down to the perfect garden rose tea party...
not sure what you mean by 2nd adam, but i agree with that too!
i think i am going to join the alternative awakening belief.
real tired of all the other.

Bandit · 08-13-2005, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISFP

hey, all

i was raised Lutheran, but never really fell in with the beliefs preached there. i didn't agree with the deification of Jesus (i generally saw this as an excuse to worship as opposed to being like him), and i disliked the amount of emphasis placed on the human experience, as i was very much drawn to the natural world.

so pretty much i went to church for years in hopes of hearing a really nice hymn.

i'd been privately rejecting much of Chritian doctrine for a while when my dad died. this pretty much cinched it for me at ten. i could not understand why a personal, loving god would strike down a guy like my father and leave my mom all alone with three kids and all that grief. i figured that it was silly to try to attribute bad things to a god who just knows better than we do.

so for about ten years after, i believed vaguely in a "something", a spiritual element to the universe that gave life and took it away. kind of like the Tao. i studied various religious paths (like Buddhism, Islam, and Pantheism) but none of them really fit. still, i learned alot of cool stuff.

when i got off to college (grudgingly- i wanted to get a job out of high school like my friends and didn't much see "the point" of going to school) i discovered Quakerism. it felt right, and i loved the Quaker community. i also loved the fact that there was real emphasis on changing things for the better and following Jesus' example, not just praying to him and hoping god'll take care of the important stuff. the permission for fluidity of personal belief also appealed to me. some Quakers are Christians, others believe in a Unitarian god, while others are agnostics.

so, that's about it up to now.

wow! not sure how i missed all this but i agree with this too, like 100%. this feels more like freedom to me, than being bound by religious dogma & being told you have to believe this or ELSE.
dont know much about Quaker, but if it is working then stick with it.
thanks for the tesitmony of alternative christian awakenings