Alternative christian sects section? - Page 3

Faithfulservant · 10-20-2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aburaees

Are you aware that Jehovah's Witnesses were sent to concentration camps in Nazi Germany, simply for being what they were? What you just said only applies to the Western nations... in other countries across the world they suffer the same persecution that you would.

were you aware that the Watchtower Organization were supporters of Hitlers regime???? There is documentation available on the internet... I have never seen nor heard that they were sent to camps...I would like to see some documentation on that fact. I think its very interesting that they have somehow linked themselved to Gods chosen people ...I mean Israel...and the horror committed to them... and even now they are trying to replace Gods chosen people, Israel...in the prophecies... I smell some dastardly business going on by an enemy...

aburaees · 10-20-2006, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

were you aware that the Watchtower Organization were supporters of Hitlers regime???? There is documentation available on the internet... I have never seen nor heard that they were sent to camps...I would like to see some documentation on that fact. I think its very interesting that they have somehow linked themselved to Gods chosen people ...I mean Israel...and the horror committed to them... and even now they are trying to replace Gods chosen people, Israel...in the prophecies... I smell some dastardly business going on by an enemy...

You can find anything on the internet...

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php...uleId=10005394
http://www.holocaust-trc.org/Jehovah.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses
http://www.religioustolerance.org/witness10.htm

Jehovah's Witnesses would not get involved in the politics of Germany at the time, it was clearly against their beliefs. In the end they were persecuted for refusing to give military service.
Christians during the rule of the Roman empire did not seek to overthrow or resist their rulers, why you would equate this with supporting a regime is beyond me...

Faithful Servant, are you aware that it wasn't JUST the Jewish nation who were persecuted in Nazi Germany? Though they were the majority of those who suffered, Gypsies were also sent to camps amongst other groups of people for racial, ethnic, religious and ideological reasons.

.

mee · 10-20-2006, 08:41 AM

[quote=Faithfulservant]were you aware that the Watchtower Organization were supporters of Hitlers regime???? There is documentation available on the internet... I have never seen nor heard that they were sent to camps...I would like to see some documentation on that fact.
quote] not meaning to be disrepectful , but i think we can read many things on the internet ,either the truth about Jehovahs witnesses,such as the links that aburaees put up , or things that are not so true . but at the end of the day i think we read what we want to hear .do we want to hear halftruths and twisted information or are we looking to find out the truth about something.i am surprised that you have never heard about the persucution of Jehovahs witnesses , which in some lands is still going on ,because there is plenty of information out there if we are looking for the facts,the same as there is plenty of info only meant to put over untruths, i can only speak for myself but i would not feel good about myself if i was directing people to untruths and twisted information .especially when it involved the name of God.

Dor · 10-20-2006, 12:44 PM

Faithfulservant · 10-21-2006, 12:21 AM

I was wrong.. I got the churches mixed up in my head because I cant find anywhere that said they supported Hitler.... Im sorry for bearing false witness against a group of innocent people that dealt with such horror and the family of the people that were persecuted.. I feel bad

Prober · 10-21-2006, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I was wrong.. I got the churches mixed up in my head because I cant find anywhere that said they supported Hitler.... Im sorry for bearing false witness against a group of innocent people that dealt with such horror and the family of the people that were persecuted.. I feel bad

I believe you may be referring to the (gulp) german Seventh-day Adventists.

Quahom1 · 10-21-2006, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I was wrong.. I got the churches mixed up in my head because I cant find anywhere that said they supported Hitler.... Im sorry for bearing false witness against a group of innocent people that dealt with such horror and the family of the people that were persecuted.. I feel bad

Indeed, 10,000 JWs ended up in concentration camps during WWII. Considering there were less than 2,000,000 world wide at the time that is a significant number. (not to belittle the suffering of those 10,000 humans).

Quahom1 · 10-21-2006, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prober

I believe you may be referring to the (gulp) german Seventh-day Adventists.

Unfortunately that may indeed be the case. But then consider that the Catholic Church (Vatican) did not help matters much either, but individual churches were paramount in their support of potential victims of Nazi Germany. Possibly the same could be said for the 7th Day Adventists...

Quahom1 · 10-21-2006, 03:41 AM

Damn, I just realized. We have a version of Liberal Christian thought sitting right here, and we aren't trying to spit on each other...

Maybe it isn't the concept of Christianity, but the mindset of individuals?

Oh, maybe I'll just go back into my hole.

Dor · 10-21-2006, 04:22 AM

Yes German JW's as individuals were persecuted by the Nazis...who wasnt.
I think it might be good for everyone to go look at the writings and actions of Joseph F Rutherford and Nathan H. Knorr. Especially the Decleration of Facts from 1933 convention in Berlin. and the letter to Hitler from 33.

Quahom1 · 10-21-2006, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dor

Yes German JW's as individuals were persecuted by the Nazis...who wasnt.
I think it might be good for everyone to go look at the writings and actions of Joseph F Rutherford and Nathan H. Knorr. Especially the Decleration of Facts from 1933 convention in Berlin. and the letter to Hitler from 33.

I think it might be good for everyone to remember, that lots of people didn't do what their faith said they should do (I think I was clear on mine), during Nazi Germany. And as I recall...evangelicals of the time, thought Germany was the whereforall...careful what you bring up from the past...

mee · 10-21-2006, 08:07 AM

As people are talking about JW and hitler ,

In 1934 HE SAID shaking his fists,‘This brood (JW)will be exterminated in Germany!’" Now, many years later, has the "brood" been exterminated?

To the contrary, they are stronger than ever. But Hitler and his Nazism have been defunct some years. In contrast, there are now many active Witnesses in Germany, The "brood" has not been exterminated. It has multiplied! They are stronger than ever!

Quahom1 · 10-21-2006, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

As people are talking about JW and hitler ,

In 1934 HE SAID shaking his fists,‘This brood (JW)will be exterminated in Germany!’" Now, many years later, has the "brood" been exterminated?

To the contrary, they are stronger than ever. But Hitler and his Nazism have been defunct some years. In contrast, there are now many active Witnesses in Germany, The "brood" has not been exterminated. It has multiplied! They are stronger than ever!

The Jehovah's Witness kingdom has declined by 250,000 in the last twenty five years alone. There are now less than 6,000,000 Jehovah's Witnesses world wide, and under 500,000 in the US.

Unfortunately, it is Nazism that is on the rise again. Hitler did not make the statement you brought up. One of his ministers did. Ah, yes Goebells, was the name I believe. Minister of Propaganda. But then he said similar statements on other groups as well.

Saltmeister · 10-21-2006, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

As I said on another thread, Christian isn't just a religion, it's also a general ethnicity. There's a whole universe of Christian thought, practice, and culture, and it's evolving and changing all the time. There is a desperate need for a broad dialog between all the factions and those on the fringes, not to codify and standardize, but to learn to listen and share. People are crying out for this everywhere you turn. The solution is not to form a consensus on where to erect a fence, but to tear down the fences and walls.

Perhaps what we could say is that Christianity is not really one religion, but many religions in one.

Christianity is a religion that needs to be explored. Nobody figures out all the right reasoning all at once. Nobody gets it right the first time. Even if someone gets it wrong, there is no need to tell them off right away. Let them figure it out. It's nice when we're all encouraged to explore the concepts on our own, and discover our place in the story God is writing.

We're afraid that if one person gets it wrong, and expresses an idea that isn't in line with "Christianity" that person will start spreading that idea. Should we tell that person off for getting it wrong?

I think not. I think when we get the concepts wrong, it's much better for us to figure it out slowly but surely rather than being told we're wrong straight away. If people kept saying to us, "no, you have to do it this way," we would probably end up not understanding anything about Christianity. That's because the particular approach to Christianity that people tell us to follow makes more sense to those people than us. Conforming to someone else's approach to Christianity does not help us understand Christianity better.

It's like copying somebody else's answers in a test.

We all come from different walks of life, and so we have to appreciate the different personalities of individuals that form God's spiritual temple.

Alternative Christianity?

My view is that all Christians are alternative Christians, regardless of what kind of Christian you claim to be. Each spiritual journey is itself an alternative. Christianity wasn't meant to be a monolithic faith where everybody wears the same clothes, same uniform, same haircut, same hairstyle, same coloured eyes, same skin colour, etc. Christianity isn't a copy-cat religion.

Christianity is a religion of alternatives. It's the same Christ leading us through different doors. Everyone who wants to find God has to go through a different door and they can't go through somebody else's door. They have to go through their own. A universal Christ, a universal Messiah, universal spiritual leader. Different lives, same leader. Christianity is a religion about a test with answers but you don't copy somebody else's answers. You write your own.

Of course, there's a catch. Christianity doesn't go out of its way to say "all paths lead to God." Instead, it says, "all paths led by Christ lead to God."

There's a trade-off between diversity and conformity. Diversity can lead people astray yet conformity can be just as bad. Conformity is something people can start to idolise. You start getting a group mentality where everyone has to meet a particular standard. People start judging each other on who conforms to the standard. Diversity can dilute the meaning of Christianity into something vague and conformity can distort the whole idea of Christianity by getting people to align to a single concept. Because a lot of people are so prone to thinking that one size shoe fits all sizes the whole notion of Christianity is reduced and simplified to what they are taught.

That kind of reminds me of the story of the Tower of Babel. People thought they had to connect to God using some kind of "Tower" to reach heaven but God wanted something more personal. The Tower of Babel was a "visible structure" that was easy to see. That's why people liked the idea so much.

Conformity is like building a Tower of Babel. Any organised religion can be much like a Tower of Babel where the organisation is exalted as the means of connecting with God when all God wants is a personal relationship with us. Getting everyone to follow the same rules is an idea that appeals to a lot of people.

I believe a lot of religious groups in Christianity accidentally fall for this Tower of Babel idea without knowing it. The "visible structure" is built on like a Tower when we can all connect with God directly.

Quahom1 · 10-21-2006, 05:37 PM

Christianity isn't a religion, It is a way of life. Many call themselves Christian, however the sad truth is they do not live as Christians.

The Bible isn't a religious book. It is a book of faith. Mostly it tells stories about those with faith. It is a book of history. It is a book of love. It is a book of wisdom, and a book of hope.

The conformity of which you speak is important to any structure, physical or metaphorical. A house divided can not stand.

To a true Christian, many roads lead to Rome. One road leads the way home.