Americans: Defund the Iraq War

[Pathless]

Cost of War: $720 million a day.

Add your signature and voice to the effort to defund the Iraq War.

Seven hundred and twenty million dollars a day in American taxes go towards maintaining the Iraq occupation. Watch this video to learn what else 720 million dollars could be used for every day. Sign the petition and tell members of Congress what you think.

The issue is simple. Continue funding occupation, denial of self-determination, death, and resource exploitation in the name of "freedom," or end that madness and begin some productive, creative work.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Pathless

The issue is simple. Continue funding occupation, denial of self-determination, death, and resource exploitation in the name of "freedom," or end that madness and begin some productive, creative work.

Namaste Pathless,

Simple? Sure wish we had a bunch of Iraqis on this forum, I'd love their input.

We've made a mistake in my opinion, a big one, and we've got egg on our face and must make ammends. Defunding, I'm not ready to say is the solution. We've built the bases, we've built our embassy, we appear to be making some strides in bringing them back some security...

I just don't know, don't see how leaving them in the lurch is the right answer.

I wish they'd vote on it.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Pathless,

Simple? Sure wish we had a bunch of Iraqis on this forum, I'd love their input.

We've made a mistake in my opinion, a big one, and we've got egg on our face and must make ammends. Defunding, I'm not ready to say is the solution. We've built the bases, we've built our embassy, we appear to be making some strides in bringing them back some security...

I just don't know, don't see how leaving them in the lurch is the right answer.

I wish they'd vote on it.

Iraqis? Vote? Haha. That's a good one, wil.

No, they don't get that opporutnity. I think if they did--well, it would be a mess, yes. Yet the overwhelming response, I believe, from what I've seen and heard, would be "Please Leave. Give Us Our Country Back." They don't want us to occupy them, don't want a babysitter. They sure do want drinking water and power and jobs, though. Yet we're not giving them that, which is kinda what we promised we'd do. We're continuing to give them death and deprivation. Same story that's been going on for almost twenty years.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Iraqis? Vote? Haha. That's a good one, wil.

No, they don't get that opporutnity. I think if they did--well, it would be a mess, yes. Yet the overwhelming response, I believe, from what I've seen and heard, would be "Please Leave. Give Us Our Country Back." They don't want us to occupy them, don't want a babysitter. They sure do want drinking water and power and jobs, though. Yet we're not giving them that, which is kinda what we promised we'd do. We're continuing to give them death and deprivation. Same story that's been going on for almost twenty years.

Well we actually are spending quite a bit on infrastructure, water, sewer, power, roads, schools, hospitals and the lions share of the jobs are now going to iraqis to do the construction. We blew up most of this stuff in the first war, and then with sanctions wouldn't allow the parts to reconstruct, it was a quagmire. We blew them up again in the second war, and now are putting schools and hospitals, water and sewer in places that never had it before, as well as trying to rebuild the old. That is where a lot of that funding is going, that and training their police so they can take over, and protecting the workers who are doing the work.

And of course a portion of that money will be spent wherever our soldiers and ships happen to be. It'll decrease when we eliminate all the guard and reserve that is on fulltime pay and bennies and they go back to weekend warriors. But 100% of that money will never disappear and if we were to take it all away, whatever construction is in operation would stop at a standstill.

As I said, I am not in favor of the war, but I am in favor of rebuilding what we've blown up.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by wil

Well we actually are spending quite a bit on infrastructure, water, sewer, power, roads, schools, hospitals and the lions share of the jobs are now going to iraqis to do the construction.

Are we? Are they? Where do you get your information from?

Originally Posted by wil

We blew up most of this stuff in the first war, and then with sanctions wouldn't allow the parts to reconstruct, it was a quagmire. We blew them up again in the second war...

You make it sound as innocuous as the sterile CNN footage of video-game style bombing games broadcast during the first gulf war.

Originally Posted by wil

and now are putting schools and hospitals, water and sewer in places that never had it before, as well as trying to rebuild the old. That is where a lot of that funding is going, that and training their police so they can take over, and protecting the workers who are doing the work.

Really? Again, where do you get your information from? Isn't a lot of funding going to building permanent bases, going to supporting a "surge" of U.S. troops? Isn't it also going into importing comforting commodities to U.S. personnel in the green zone? It is.*

Originally Posted by wil

I am not in favor of the war, but I am in favor of rebuilding what we've blown up.

I am also in favor of supporting rebuilding efforts. I don't think that the United States should be unilaterally in charge of those efforts, or get to hand-pick which Iraqis they would include in those efforts.

* Check out Imperial Life in the Emerlad City by Rajiv Chandrasekaran for a perspective on this. Also Democracy Now! | Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Iraq's Green Zone. For those who don't agree on principle with the act of reading, there should be a movie coming out next year.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Are we? Are they? Where do you get your information from?

You make it sound as innocuous as the sterile CNN footage of video-game style bombing games broadcast during the first gulf war.

Really? Again, where do you get your information from? Isn't a lot of funding going to building permanent bases, going to supporting a "surge" of U.S. troops? Isn't it also going into importing comforting commodities to U.S. personnel in the green zone? It is.*

I am also in favor of supporting rebuilding efforts. I don't think that the United States should be unilaterally in charge of those efforts, or get to hand-pick which Iraqis they would include in those efforts.

The US is unilaterally funding 80% of the bill the direction of the remaing monies is now being focused by the Iraqi gov't. Yes we bombed the runways so yes we are rebuilding them and the bases, just as was done in Germany and Japan. And yes expect us to be there until that region is stable or we are kicked out (physically).

where do I get my information...google iraq reconstruction efforts or something akin to that. You'll get the charts showing the number of schools, bridges, highways, hospitals, water, sewage, electrical on one side and the indicators of corruption, wasted funds, bases built 200 million dollar renovation to Sadams palace on the waterfront which is now our embassy.

I read it all, not just the left or just the right, both are biased and full of half truths as the day is long...gotta read it all to develop an understanding...or I do anyway.

And somewhere amongst that years ago I found the target lists of GW1 and the anticipated death toll of civilians for each target, it was gross reading, stuck in my head forever.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by wil

where do I get my information...google iraq reconstruction efforts or something akin to that. You'll get the charts showing the number of schools, bridges, highways, hospitals, water, sewage, electrical on one side and the indicators of corruption, wasted funds, bases built 200 million dollar renovation to Sadams palace on the waterfront which is now our embassy.

I read it all, not just the left or just the right, both are biased and full of half truths as the day is long...gotta read it all to develop an understanding...or I do anyway.

When I google "iraq reconstruction efforts," I get this: Washington Post, whitehouse.gov, http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05876.pdf, wikipedia, defendamerica.mil/iraq, sigir.mil, globalsecurity.org, cnn.com. Where's the stuff from the left?

But whatever. We all have our preferred media sources. Wil, could you link directly to some articles that detail some of the positives of reconstruction efforts, such as "schools, bridges, highways, hospitals, water, sewage, electrical," etc.? I would be interested in seeing reports on that. I googled but didn't find it. Granted, I didn't wade through the heavy pdf files and ponderous government web sites, but I have things that I would rather do with my left-leaning time, so if you have access to some reports, I'd appreciate a link or two. I haven't read or heard much about the reconstruction effort in the past couple of years.

[wil]

Namaste my brother...

we are in the same boat. time constraints.

I don't have said articles at my fingertips, but as I come across stuff that would be of interest, I will forward/post it.

Wiki if I remember correctly has a ton of stuff, both critical and supportive, as do probably some of the PDFs you mentioned. It is these kind of things that during the course of the past years I've clicked on read, and then spout out comments on from my memory banks....being what they are.

Washington Post, CNN, are news info, biased slightly left. Now fox on the other hand.....

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste my brother...

we are in the same boat. time constraints.

I don't have said articles at my fingertips, but as I come across stuff that would be of interest, I will forward/post it.

Wiki if I remember correctly has a ton of stuff, both critical and supportive, as do probably some of the PDFs you mentioned. It is these kind of things that during the course of the past years I've clicked on read, and then spout out comments on from my memory banks....being what they are.

Washington Post, CNN, are news info, biased slightly left. Now fox on the other hand.....

Hey wil. Not exactly the same boat. I often link directly to resources that support my opinions, while you seem unable or unwilling to produce. I'm just not going to be able to give much credence to your opinions about the state of reconstruction in Iraq if you are not able to back them up.

Check out Iraq in Fragments. Filmed between 2003 and 2005, it unfolds stories in three places: Baghdad, Al Sadr City, and the northern Iraqi Kurdistan. The most hopeful portrait is of Kurdistan, where people bake bricks and wait in line to cast votes. Kids play soccer and lay on the ground in friendship, smiling at the sun, joking with each other. In Al Sadr City, it's all Islamic Revolution; and in Baghdad, it's poverty, unemployment, and poor education.

Granted, this film only reaches into 2005. Things may have vastly, significantly improved in 2006 and this last year. But somehow I doubt it.

Washington Post and CNN are not what I would consider sources of the left. Slightly? Very, very slightly.

[Pathless]

Besides all of that, this thread is about defunding the war, not about defunding reconstruction. Are reconstruction funds the same as war funds? I don't know. I hope not. It kind of boggles my common sense that they would be.

Originally Posted by Defund/Refund petition

Please sign the DEFUND/REFUND petition below to shift war funding to support human needs here and real solutions in Iraq.

To Members of Congress:

U.S. military personnel continue to die in Iraq. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died since the U.S. invasion and 4 million have fled their homes. U.S. taxpayers have contributed more than $1 trillion to pay for the current and future costs of the first four years of war.

We, the undersigned, urge you to take action to bring the U.S. troops home from Iraq and take care of their needs upon return; to fund aid for the humanitarian crisis in Iraq and an eventual Iraqi-led repair and reconstruction; and to fund critical human needs here in the United States.

Oh, look there. It seems like the petition itself discerns between war and reconstruction. How about that?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Besides all of that, this thread is about defunding the war, not about defunding reconstruction. Are reconstruction funds the same as war funds? I don't know. I hope not. It kind of boggles my common sense that they would be.

Oh, look there. It seems like the petition itself discerns between war and reconstruction. How about that?

Ok from wiki, how do you seperate the two??

Attacks on construction activities
Attacks, murders, bombings and armed vandalism are routine threats to reconstruction contractors. Since reconstruction began in March 2003, 1073 workers on U.S. funded projects have died, including 235 U.S. civilians, according to the U.S. Departments of Labor and State.The table below shows the number of worker deaths in each quarter starting with the first reporting by SIGIR. In addition, there have been thousands of insurance claims by construction workers for injuries sustained in attacks. The figures are probably mis-reported, especially among Iraqi contractors. Intimidation of workers has delayed projects and reduced the availability of non-Iraqi expert technicians. It is estimated that 25% of reconstruction funds have been used to provide security to construction workers and job sites.
Attacks and vandalism have also affected completed projects including sabotage of oil pipelines and high-voltage electricity towers.

You'll have to click on the link to see the chart.

But the question is. Exactly what war do you think is going on, what are we going to defund? What ground are we attacking, whose border are we encroaching on. If we defund the military and pull them out, all the contractors all construction will stop. The funds over there currently are building something, trying to protect building something, assisting them in creating and stabalizing their gov't(because we knocked off their dictator and wiped out his army and police force), or training the new police force so the citizens are protected.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by wil

Ok from wiki, how do you seperate the two??You'll have to click on the link to see the chart.

But the question is. Exactly what war do you think is going on, what are we going to defund?

Indeed--what war? "War on Terrorism", perhaps? War on Everything? I want to defund that war. I want to work towards peace and constructive activity, as I assume you do, too, wil. Hence, the petition.

That is all. For me, I want to take action, not equivocate. I recognize that a forum for comparative religion is not the best place for action. Here, we equivocate quite a bit, about many different issues.

These political posts are not about debate for me, wil. I know where I stand. Yes, I am to the left of you. Okay. We disagree.

Originally Posted by wil

What ground are we attacking, whose border are we encroaching on. If we defund the military and pull them out, all the contractors all construction will stop.

Currently we occupy Iraq. Your argument, seemingly against taking an action--signing this petition--is that war and reconstruction are intimately tied together. I understand where you are coming from. I hear ya, wil.

Originally Posted by wil

The funds over there currently are building something, trying to protect building something, assisting them in creating and stabalizing their gov't (because we knocked off their dictator and wiped out his army and police force), or training the new police force so the citizens are protected.

Petitions are a way to redress grievances. This particular one is a way to add your signature to a small movement of people who want to say:

To Members of Congress:

U.S. military personnel continue to die in Iraq. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died since the U.S. invasion and 4 million have fled their homes. U.S. taxpayers have contributed more than $1 trillion to pay for the current and future costs of the first four years of war.

We, the undersigned, urge you to take action to bring the U.S. troops home from Iraq and take care of their needs upon return; to fund aid for the humanitarian crisis in Iraq and an eventual Iraqi-led repair and reconstruction; and to fund critical human needs here in the United States.

That is all.

Petitions are a way for individuals to come together and have a voice. I sign them because I feel disenfranchised, because I want my voice to be heard. That's my thing right now. Is it a salve for my ego? I don't think so. Am I missing a larger picture? I don't think so. I think I am pretty aware of the Iraq situation.

You and I can continue to dissect the issue and bonk our egos against each other. That's cool. But I want to make it clear that that is not why I started this thread. I put the link here so that people that want to can act. This is meant to be a coming together for those who wish to act, not a further dissection.

That is all.

[path_of_one]

I don't think it's an issue of "should we" defund the war as much as "can we" continue on the way we are currently going. Realistically, we're already way overspending our own resources. Meanwhile, things are falling apart in our own nation.

We're trying to reconstruct in an area that has no unity yet and does not appear that it will in the near future. Even if we put a surge of troops in and finish the reconstruction efforts, at some point we have to leave and then it is up to the Iraqis to determine if they will cooperate with each other to maintain infrastructure or if they'll disintegrate into local warfare and blow it all up again.

I'm all for reconstruction, but if it's constantly bombed and thwarted, so be it. Put the money aside for when people decide they want us to come and help.

I get sick of the attitude that the US has that it is the one that should decide for other nations what they need and how to deliver it to them. I understand that many Iraqis are innocently caught in the crossfire of ongoing violence, but an outside culture/society (us) will not be able to simply go in and "fix" what is wrong. They have to determine for themselves that they want a different kind of government and society, and work toward it. We can then assist with funding and technical help, but they have to want it.

I'm very much against tying together war and reconstruction. There is a problem if we're trying to build stuff and they're trying to blow it up. It's their country, not ours. If they are not ready to rebuild yet, we should put aside the funds and wait until they are. It won't help anything to just continue on in the same rut we've been in that has been costing tons of money and lives, and not moving forward.

I don't think Germany and Japan are good comparisons for Iraq for a number of reasons. Iraq is internally split in a way neither of those nations were, and it does not appear that Iraqis will want to band together anytime soon in collective effort. So the violence will continue. Furthermore, as far as I know, Germany and Japan were not bombing their own reconstruction projects on a regular basis while we were helping them to reconstruct.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not blaming the Iraqis for our bombing and ruining of their infrastructure. But I do think we need to work within the limits of what another nation wants from us, and it seems clear that Iraqi people want us the heck out of there. Sticking around and continuing to force-feed people assistance while simultaneously killing large numbers of their citizenry is not going to get the job done.

That's my 2c.

[wil]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I don't think Germany and Japan are good comparisons for Iraq for a number of reasons. Iraq is internally split in a way neither of those nations were, and it does not appear that Iraqis will want to band together anytime soon in collective effort. So the violence will continue. Furthermore, as far as I know, Germany and Japan were not bombing their own reconstruction projects on a regular basis while we were helping them to reconstruct.

I am not a war monger by any way shape or form. But I am for cleaning up our own messes. I felt for the Iraqi's under Sadam, but would have in no way recommended this course of action as a solution.

You are correct, there is a huge difference between Iraq, Japan and Germany. In those countries we disarmed everyone, and completely occupied. If you were seen on the street with a weapon of any kind and you weren't in a US uniform you were shot on site. If anyone showed up with any kind of a landmine, everything within blocks was searched and folks were shot on site when a cache was discovered. No courts, no Guantanamo, no media, no circus, no questions. Tis the issue with war, the middle ground does not fly.

In regards to the petition, I haven't seen the trillion dollar number yet, I thought we were half way there, I guess if you include caring for all the injured vets, from those with some disability to those who are in now need of 24/7 care for the rest of their lives that is probably accurate.

[Paladin]

Don't know if this will obfuscate the issue but...

Comment is free: US platitudes on Iraq