An Experiment in Listening

Nick_A · 01-02-2009, 04:51 PM

This thread begins the experiment outlined on this thread:

An Experiment

Since the goal of this thread is for river and me understand each other rather than judge right or wrong, right speech will just be natural since there is no anger or insult involved. We don't have to look for ingenious ways to avoid an idea but rather relish in experiencing them.

So I'd like to invite RiverMoonLady to begin by giving her opinion either on abortion as a generality or a specific in which she supports abortion that most people for some reason referred to as pro life would object.

I know she's told me that her views on abortion have become more neutral but we should disagree enough that it would require us to be open to a position our normal inclination is to reject and emotionally defend this rejection.

So River, You can launch the experiment. If you'd rather me begin, I am willing.. The idea isn't to establish a formal debate but rather experience the experiment in "listening" as a moral intent as described by Prof. Needleman on the video linked to on the introductory thread.

So River, hopefully we can make history as to this initial attempt on Interfaith Online.

RiverMoonLady · 01-02-2009, 05:06 PM

OK. I believe that very early abortions are acceptable for some reasons, but that after viablity, they should be legal ONLY to save the life of the mother or to remove a fatally-deformed fetus if abortion is safer for the mother than deliver or a C-section. The individual's situation should be discussed by several HCPs.

Second-trimester abortions are very problematic for me. I believe that the same restrictions should apply as in post-viability abortions, but there should also be narrow exceptions for health reasons (including mental health.)

Prior to 8 or 10 weeks, I think abortion should be done as early as possible and that women having terminations done should receive birth control counseling and supplies.

Nick_A · 01-02-2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMoonLady

OK. I believe that very early abortions are acceptable for some reasons, but that after viablity, they should be legal ONLY to save the life of the mother or to remove a fatally-deformed fetus if abortion is safer for the mother than deliver or a C-section. The individual's situation should be discussed by several HCPs.

Second-trimester abortions are very problematic for me. I believe that the same restrictions should apply as in post-viability abortions, but there should also be narrow exceptions for health reasons (including mental health.)

Prior to 8 or 10 weeks, I think abortion should be done as early as possible and that women having terminations done should receive birth control counseling and supplies.

Hi Moon

I read you to believe that it isn't abortion itself that is taboo but rather the differing circumstances that cause it make it suspect.

It is the unfortunate but right thing to do as pertaining to the life of the mother, deformed fetuses and perhaps other similar circumstances but only in these particular cases and emotionally I don't read you to believe abortion as something to be glorified as a "right."

It seems to me that though you believe it to be an unfortunate necessity at times, it ethically needs to be done as early as possible and your emphasis on counseling leads me to believe that you consider it quite probable that the decision to abort could lead to further psychological trauma down the road for the mother such as persistent guilt over the decision making the initial decision to abort even more questionable.

I read you as being more accepting of abortion the earlier in occurs in pregnancy which suggests to me that the fetus is more human and as such more worthy of human life as it progresses in pregnancy.

Do I understand you so far?

Tao_Equus · 01-02-2009, 10:19 PM

Observational interlude.

Shoooorly Nick A and Listen are contradictions that can never be resolved!!

Nick_A · 01-02-2009, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Observational interlude.

Shoooorly Nick A and Listen are contradictions that can never be resolved!!

Tao, part of the necessity of a thread like this is to show what can be gained by avoiding posts such as yours. This is why the thread is for River and me to try this novel manner of discussion.

Mods, please remove Tao's post and my response.

Tao_Equus · 01-03-2009, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick_A

Tao, part of the necessity of a thread like this is to show what can be gained by avoiding posts such as yours. This is why the thread is for River and me to try this novel manner of discussion.

Mods, please remove Tao's post and my response.

Seems to me already you only want to listen to yourself and censor that which you cannot dictate. That, in my book, is not the definition of "Listening". So I conclude your experiment has failed.

I, Brian · 01-05-2009, 11:49 AM

Tao, this is an experiment for Nick A to work with. Maybe all you feel like doing here is knocking anything down that you see, but I'm happy to support Nick on this and sees how it pans out.

Feel free to carry on, Nick, and I'll remove anything not related to your original discussion on this thread as required.

BluejayWay · 01-05-2009, 11:47 PM

May I interject to say that I look forward to closely following this dialogue? My own views on this issue constitute a dialectic, and anything approaching a synthesis would be very welcome.

All the best to Nick A and RiverMoonLady on this journey.

Carry on!

Tao_Equus · 01-06-2009, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Tao, this is an experiment for Nick A to work with. Maybe all you feel like doing here is knocking anything down that you see, but I'm happy to support Nick on this and sees how it pans out.

Feel free to carry on, Nick, and I'll remove anything not related to your original discussion on this thread as required.

If i thought for one moment Nick was genuinely capable in this endeavour then I would never have posted but just look at his reply!! He only repeats what RML already states with absolute clarity and says "Do I understand you so far?"

I will however withdraw now as requested in the extremely unlikely event that it might go somewhere.

RiverMoonLady · 01-06-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick_A

Hi Moon

I read you to believe that it isn't abortion itself that is taboo but rather the differing circumstances that cause it make it suspect.

It is the unfortunate but right thing to do as pertaining to the life of the mother, deformed fetuses and perhaps other similar circumstances but only in these particular cases and emotionally I don't read you to believe abortion as something to be glorified as a "right."

It seems to me that though you believe it to be an unfortunate necessity at times, it ethically needs to be done as early as possible and your emphasis on counseling leads me to believe that you consider it quite probable that the decision to abort could lead to further psychological trauma down the road for the mother such as persistent guilt over the decision making the initial decision to abort even more questionable.

I read you as being more accepting of abortion the earlier in occurs in pregnancy which suggests to me that the fetus is more human and as such more worthy of human life as it progresses in pregnancy.

Do I understand you so far?

Yes, you do, especiallly the parts which I put in boldface, with the exception of part of the last paragraph. I disagree that the fetus is "more human", but agree that it is more worthy of life further along in pregnancy. There is no such thing as "more human" or "less human" but I do see a difference in the value of the life of a very young fetus as opposed to one which is more developed, especially when it concerns neurological functions.

Nick_A · 01-06-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMoonLady

Yes, you do, especiallly the parts which I put in boldface, with the exception of part of the last paragraph. I disagree that the fetus is "more human", but agree that it is more worthy of life further along in pregnancy. There is no such thing as "more human" or "less human" but I do see a difference in the value of the life of a very young fetus as opposed to one which is more developed, especially when it concerns neurological functions.

So far so good. I admit to not understanding the last paragraph. What determines the value of human life for you? If the fetus isn't more human as it matures, why do increased neurological functions make it more worthy of life. Please clarify this for me?