Angels and DarkAngels

Snugglepuff · 06-13-2009, 11:23 PM

Lol... I hope someone got that play on words...

OK, so, I wanted to discuss something that generally I find quite interesting. Mainly because there is a huge plethra of opinion on the subject. I've asked Satanists, Pagans, Wiccans etc... they all come up with different answers.

Originally, when I was younger, I believed that all angels were good. Bright, shining beacons doing God's work. Of course, if we look at the OT in the Bible, the Angels weren't as pure white as we'd like to imagine - raining down sulphur and such [mmmm....eggy!

]. But generally, beautiful creatures, spreading God's word.

I think later on in time they became more as a sign of protection. This is the idea I became familiar with. I even have an interesting book on angel 'encounters'. A woman doing her pHd into researching whether people believed in angels and why... she includes scientific data based on the replies she received and accounts from her willing applicants. Most of the letters starting off with "I'm not crazy, nor has there ever been any history of mental illness in my family..."

Having taken a path change however, I got to discussing this with a person who has a very different look on life. He suggested that maybe not all angels are good, maybe some of them are bad.... some of them could be neutral.

I feel as if the latter is more likely, to be honest. Some are there to protect, others might have their own personal agenda.

Of course, it all depends on whether you think they exist or not... I am not sure myself (still trying to find my path if I have one) but when I did have a connection with what I believed to be my guardian angel, I had mixed feelings.

I am interested to hear other people's thoughts on this as it's not something that is really discussed. I hope the conversation is not dismissed...

GlorytoGod · 06-15-2009, 04:39 PM

according to the Bible about 1/2 the Angels sided with satan and were kicked out of heaven these angels are now known as demons

so yeah not all Angels are good satan has a whole bunch of bad angels.

17th Angel · 06-15-2009, 04:40 PM

Satan was an angel

He's mai favourtiest of teh angals!

I, Brian · 06-15-2009, 04:51 PM

The concept of angels has certainly evolved over time, from being a direct messenger from God in Judaism, to becoming more of a kind of "personal spirit" in New Age thinking.

It does actually make it hard to understand what "angels" means anymore.

17th Angel · 06-15-2009, 04:58 PM

Also E.T's are classed to some as angels Brian.

Snugglepuff · 06-15-2009, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlorytoGod

according to the Bible about 1/2 the Angels sided with satan and were kicked out of heaven these angels are now known as demons

so yeah not all Angels are good satan has a whole bunch of bad angels.

I wasn't quite referring to Lucifer and his 'demons'. It was more about angels from a neutral perspective... sort of looking at them as neither good nor evil kind of thing...

Dream · 06-15-2009, 11:23 PM

Angels are like something between past & future, like the 'Present'. If you really want to know what 'Now' is, you're at a loss because all you can know is the past not the present or future. You might even guess the future, but the Present is elusive, totally out of our control. The present may even be just an idea that we have to help us keep from panicking. Angels are like that, too. Does that help?

GlorytoGod · 06-16-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snugglepuff

I wasn't quite referring to Lucifer and his 'demons'. It was more about angels from a neutral perspective... sort of looking at them as neither good nor evil kind of thing...

as far as I know the Bible is the best authority we have regarding Angels, so take it or leave it, up to you

and in your own words

Quote:

I hope the conversation is not dismissed...

17th Angel · 06-16-2009, 12:44 PM

I love how people attempt to use opinion as fact lol.

shawn · 06-16-2009, 03:58 PM

All the old references to "angels" were to beings who came from places ordinary people couldn't go (like from under the ocean, appear from thin air, from a glowing chariot coming down from the heavens, etc) and they had, at times, attributes which were not human.
Lots of people speculate that these beings were extra-terrestrial visitors of some sort, which is plausible IMO.

path_of_one · 06-16-2009, 05:00 PM

To be honest, I never know what to think of angels. I tend to think of them categorically in more of a Jewish way- as messengers of God. Therefore, anything really could be an angel if it carries a divine message, right? But so far as I understand it, in Jewish thought, angels do not have free will. So the idea of an angel with a personal agenda (including the Christian idea of Satan and demons as "fallen" angels) makes little sense in a Judaic context.

Angels fall into a sort of category about which I have no opinion. This is because I have no experience of them. I have experienced spirits of various kinds, but none could be considered angelic by the conventional definitions of either Christianity or Judaism. I really have never had much interest in the idea of "guardian" angels as it seems (forgive me) like a bunch of New Age wishful thinking to have some being that just hangs around protecting you. I do believe that one can have spirit(s) that are sort of like guides, but in my experience these are not angelic, they have their own history, lessons to learn, and are more like companions and teachers than angels in the Judaic sense.

I don't know why, but the whole angel thing just never really interested me that much. The Judaic concept always made sense to me- beings that embody a divine message. But the modern Christian concept of them doesn't make sense given the Judaic roots- seems more like trying to cram Pagan gods/goddesses into the idea of Jewish angels. Satan makes no sense to me whatsoever and his history is so obviously tied up in the church's attempts to demonize Pan and the other wild gods that the whole idea is thoroughly wrapped up in a smattering of ideas from various cultures, all of which had nothing to do with Christ or Judaism. In terms of demons as evil spirits, I tend to think this is the equivalent of people who consistently are selfish and make bad choices. It's the spirit equivalent to a "bad" person.

In my experience, spirits all have free will as we do (at least the ones I've "met") and so it makes sense some would make wrong or selfish choices that would allow one to categorize them as demons. For me, there seems to be an evil force that could be the sort of inertia of all bad/selfish actions and thoughts combined, but it is not a person as Christians are used to thinking of Satan, and therefore it is not a threat in the same way. I find the idea of some powerful personal anti-divine being hanging around trying to convince me to do bad things just... odd. I say, people need to take responsibility for their own thoughts and actions and quit blaming some conceptual anti-divine being for their own bad choices.

Netti-Netti · 06-17-2009, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snugglepuff

... I got to discussing this with a person who has a very different look on life. He suggested that maybe not all angels are good, maybe some of them are bad.... some of them could be neutral.

I feel as if the latter is more likely, to be honest. Some are there to protect, others might have their own personal agenda.

In the Judaic tradition, angels have no free will. From that standpoint, the notion of "fallen angel" actually doesn't make much sense.

Avi · 06-17-2009, 05:24 AM

I believe the first direct Biblical reference to angels is in Genesis 19 when Lot and his family are helped by two angels to get out of Sodom !

But I think the favorite for many is Jacob's ladder, Genesis 28, when Jacob first encounters G-d. He dreams of a ladder to heaven with angels going up and down the ladder. Quite the memorable vision ! I think there are times when we could all use a guardian angel. Even if he / she is not a literal one.

seattlegal · 06-17-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

In the Judaic tradition, angels have no free will. From that standpoint, the notion of "fallen angel" actually doesn't make much sense.

Do you have a source for this?

Netti-Netti · 06-17-2009, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Do you have a source for this?

"Just as it is true for the higher worlds that it is man and only man who is able to choose and perform good, so it is only man who can do evil. ... (p. 27) ~ Adin Steinsaltz

Of all created beings, only humans are capable of free action. This makes humans superior to angels. (see Steinsaltz p. 41)

Destructive angels seem to be become independent. This impression relates to them acquiring intensified presence in earthly realms as a result of human choices. In other worlds, their "presence" more intensely reflects bad choices on the part of humans.

The existence of destructive angels is essentially parasitic, which creates the impression of a partnership between them and humans that enhances a person's powers. My hunch is that humans' attraction to evil relates in part to the seemingly magical quality of boosting the visibility of destructive angels by engaging in evil. Steinsaltz suggests there is nothing magical about any of it. It's all just part of how the system is set up.

All this is explained in detail in the The Thirteen Petalled Rose.