angels or demons?

[Quahom1]

Hello Dayaa,

I certainly appreciate the canundrum you face. And I will not attempt to force feed Jesus to you. But I will ask you this.

If Muslims accept the first five books of the Old Testament, or even the first two or three, then surely Genesis' description of how man was made must be accepted. God said, "Let us make man in our image." In in the image and likeness of God, man was made. And man was made, a little lower than the Angels (for now), but was made as a companion to God. For God walked with man in the Garden.

Now the Qu'ran states that the angel "Gabriel" appeared to Mohammed, and Gabriel was in the form of a man. And Gabriel ordered Mohammed to recite the the final revelations, and wonder of the things that man did not know

So one must ask self, what does this all mean? If we are made in the image and likeness of God...what image and what likeness is God referring to?

v/r

Q

[dayaa]

hello quahom

i don't know . that's what i'm trying to understand. can i go on a flight of imagination here, i might be completely off the mark, anyway.....how about God (the almighty) creates man. man in his infancy does not have the knowledge that we have now by which to draw conclusions, so God (the almighty) puts some part of himself into human form to provide knowledge and comfort and security for man (a parent figure).....man sees the human form part of God (not God the almighty)....he is familiar to him, walking in the garden etc. reading the footnotes in my old testament there is a very good explanation of how the early parts of the bible might have been handed down orally by different groups then slightly varying versions spliced back together (explaining some odd repetitions etc). if we go with this explanation rather than "moses wrote it" that means those stories came from a much earlier less sophisticated time than the time of moses. maybe God (the parent figure) did actually walk in the garden. maybe the people who saw that handed the stories down and they said God created man in his own image because that's what they saw (the human form parent figure part of God). maybe God (the almighty) didn't so much create man in his own image as came down to our level in order to communicate better with those early people. they saw a "man" so they said God made us like him....maybe it was sort of the other way round. then as time passed man became more sophisticated and began to be capable of understanding the idea of God (the almighty) so the stories then begin to talk of God as the almighty. i suppose this all depends a bit on how you view the bible....who wrote it etc. i LIKE this explanation. it feels comfortable to me....it makes sense to me.....but then i'm no christian scholar i might be totally at odds with all other understandings of this.
hope i haven't offended anyone by my flight of imagination. any comments welcome.

[path_of_one]

Hello, dayaa-

I'll add my views to the image/likeness/form of God discussion, from my experience and interpretation of scripture. For the sake of brevity, I will preface this entire passage by saying "I believe... according to my experience and interpretation" rather than couching each statement as such. So of course, this may or may not resound with various Christian doctrines, and it is open to revision given further guidance by the Spirit.

God does not have human form. God is Spirit, not matter. He never was matter and never will be. He is incomprehensible to us, a mystery. Us humans can experience God, but we cannot fully understand Him, and we cannot see the entirety of God because it would short-circuit our minds- it would be entering data into a system with which it is utterly incompatible. So what we experience, and always have since the dawn of humanity, are glimpses of God. God in forms that we can comprehend, bits and pieces that are what we can withstand.

So what about "image and likeness"? I would argue this has nothing to do with physical form. The Jewish idea of God as beyond matter supports a reading that God does not look like a human being. My own experience is that the Spirit of God, the life-breath of creation, resides in all beings- human and otherwise. We are created in the image and likeness of the (plural) God in at least two ways.

First, each of us contains the divine light- the bit of ourselves that came directly from God breathing into us His divine breath of life. This divine spark resides deep within every soul, and the journey within to fan it to flame and thus unite with God is the goal of every person's spirituality. We can obscure the light with a dark cloud of wrong-doing and sin, but at heart- in our core- this light never, ever goes out. It is what makes us in the image/likeness of God- it is our spirit-self and our true soul. However, we certainly can forget about it and hide our light in a closet or under a nightstand. As Jesus taught, what we are supposed to do is fan this small light into a radiant flame that lights the path to God for those around us- and so we ought to put our lamp on a table where it belongs. So, our core essence is of God, and thus we are made in God's likeness and image.

Second, each of us contains feminity and masculinity within us, and in our physical form we also manifest both genders. Just as God is really neither He nor She, but both and neither, our souls are. As Jesus taught, there are no husbands and wives in heaven. There are only individuals. Now, that doesn't mean that feminity and masculinity are completely illusory, though they are defined by our culture and thus vary greatly amongst humankind. But the duality that people in all cultures have perceived throughout the ages- sun and moon, light and dark, day and night, male and female, earth and sky... I think there is something there. The lesson is not, however, that the universe (and God) is necessarily dual, but rather that it is the unity in the duality that yields creation/creativity. God is One, and yet plural, just as each of us is one, and yet plural. Each of our bodies unites estrogen and testosterone- the two key hormones of female-ness and male-ness, to keep our bodies going. And spiritually each of us is made more whole if we unite the nurturing, intuitive, emotional side we associate with femininity and the assertive, practical, rational side we associate with masculinity. Furthermore, it is only in the unity of male and female physically that creation continues on earth. So again, we see that we were made in the image/likeness of God- God's dual and yet One nature is manifest in us.

So how did God "walk" with Adam and Eve in the garden? First of all, it depends on what you think the Genesis account was. Was it completely historical, or was it symbolic? Is the point what happened, or what it means (or both)? I think God walked with Adam and Eve in a metaphoric way. I do not think He literally had legs. Yet I think He was manifest in a much more immediate way than most of us now perceive. All over the world, people have creation stories about a time when humans and animals could speak to one another in one language, a time when humans were not yet fully physical and were in closer contact with the Great Spirit/Creator/etc. I do not think this meant, however, that God was in a bodily form. I think it means that people once had more of a direct communion with God- God pervaded everything and "walked" alongside everyone. People could sense His immediate Presence, and could receive messages from Him more directly. I must refer to some of my own experiences and visions to understand this, and so it may be a bit non-sensical to you. I am not saying that it is entirely metaphor that God was more immediately manifest to the humans at the dawn of creation, but rather saying that to do so, He needn't have donned a body. I can explain further if need be.

Finally, what of Jesus? First of all, not all Christians are trinitarians, and not all believe Jesus was God incarnate. Although I'm sure they exist (because nearly every conceivable belief does somewhere), I don't know any Christians who think Jesus was the entirety of God incarnate, nor do I know many who think God looks like Jesus. If God was incarnate in Jesus, the historical man Jesus was the bodily form God assumed, not what God actually is. My own ideas about the divinity of Jesus are still evolving at this point, but suffice it to say that I think it is incorrect to worship the human form of Jesus as God (as in, an idol/graven image of his body), though I do not think it necessarily incorrect to worship the divinity that was within Jesus, manifest in his teachings, life, and death. Jesus was the union of divinity and humanity- a real human person with a body, temptations, desires, etc. and also a real divine inner nature. Ultimately, by realizing his divinity he united the divine and the body- matter and spirit- and his body became a tool for the will of God, rather than his own.

Peace to you

[Quahom1]

Hello Dayaa, and Path,

I think perhaps you both have the right idea about the infiniteness of God, and the "toning down" of His visage for our benefit. However, despite our failings and apparent weaknesses, I think the "piece of God" within each of us (to put it crudely), is much more than a spark.

I think we've forgotten what we are capable of, and need God to remember, the right way. Or else "someone else" may twist our capacity for the wrong way.

v/r

Q

[dayaa]

hello path, quahom and all
thank you both for your comments.
path, your comments were very interesting, and within your personal belief system you are consistent, which is what i am looking for. (but i understand that your beliefs are not mainstream christianity). i hope more people with varying views might add to this thread to get a broad range of ideas. to me, consistency is important, and people interpret things in so many different ways, some of which do not seem to be consistent. to put it very basically, either God does or doesn't/ can or can't in some way assume human form.....what i am looking for is a consistency that i can relate to. path has acheived that by taking it all as to some extent metaphorical. as i understand it though, most christians believe jesus to be more literally the "son of God" or "God incarnate" and to me it seems necessary to find a precedent for that in previous scripture. it seems a bit odd to insist that God has no physical form in one breath then in the next talk about the son of God. to my mind, either jewish interpretation of scripture where God has no physical form, never did, never will do, is right.....in which case jesus cannot be God incarnate either, or jesus was in some form God incarnate in which case we need a precedent for that concept from scripture (as i suggested above).
thanks everybody....keep the comments coming

[Quahom1]

God can do anything God wants...without our permission.

[Proph 1]

Quite frankly, not everything that is supernatural is of God. Satan has power to. In fact, the Bible warns of deception in the endtimes. My take on these crying statues, and apparations, are that it is not of God.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by dayaa

i hope more people with varying views might add to this thread to get a broad range of ideas. to me, consistency is important, and people interpret things in so many different ways, some of which do not seem to be consistent. to put it very basically, either God does or doesn't/ can or can't in some way assume human form.....what i am looking for is a consistency that i can relate to. path has acheived that by taking it all as to some extent metaphorical. as i understand it though, most christians believe jesus to be more literally the "son of God" or "God incarnate" and to me it seems necessary to find a precedent for that in previous scripture. it seems a bit odd to insist that God has no physical form in one breath then in the next talk about the son of God. to my mind, either jewish interpretation of scripture where God has no physical form, never did, never will do, is right.....in which case jesus cannot be God incarnate either, or jesus was in some form God incarnate in which case we need a precedent for that concept from scripture (as i suggested above).
thanks everybody....keep the comments coming

i cannot tell exactly what you are looking for Daya. it says angels demons but everyone is talking Jesus/God.

i see God the same way the Jews & Muslims do & kind of like Path of One does. ONE spirit without form. plain & simple. i see Jesus as a man. plain & simple.
the scripure tells us the mystery of Jesus has been revealed in the apostles & prophets writings. it does not say the mystery of God has been revealed. so what are you trying to understand? Jesus or God?

the reason so many see an incarnation is because of the preeminence of Jesus & that yes He did literally exist prior to his life as a man in the NT. the eternal high priest would be without father or mother.

i can run all the beliefs out from memory, (which version do you want to hear?) I made a note to you awhile back, if the way others see it, does not work for you all the way through come & see me. that is still open.
i know you are smart & are not going to settle for anything less than what makes sense all the way through. at the same time, we cannot make Jesus less than what the scripture says he is. the Bible says he is equal with God.

i dont know what else to tell you unless you talk to me because I am not getting into a group debate with other Christians over this.

you have to take every scripture pertaining to it & not just throw a few out here & there like dice. it is NOT an easy thing to see.

Daya, how do you interpret these scriptures from Philipians? so i can see what you are seeing on this.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

[dayaa]

hello bandit

yes at some point this thread got side tracked to a different subject....my fault
thanks for your offer to discuss this with you on a one to one basis and i will take you up on that sometime soon but not right now......i seem to have got myself in a bit of a state worrying about it all and i'm getting to mental exhaustion point. i think i need a few days break to calm down a bit .

just to explain briefly what's going on in my head: i don't have any problem with God at all....but i have a problem in knowing what is the right way to go about it. i really LIKE jesus.....the persona, the teachings, but i get tangled up in the dogma and interpretations which vary from denomination to denomination. i have a general understanding of christianity (mainstream) but lack specific knowledge particularly in the subtle differences between opinions. even different groups use different translations of the bible. i am trying to read it all for myself and draw my own conclusions, but i also find it helpful to get personal insights from people which help me to understand what i am looking for and how different people interpret it and why.

anyway...i seem to have got myself a bit bogged down at the moment, and i feel i need to do some more reading....then come back to the philosophy again with a fresh mind.

thanks again
see you soon

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by dayaa

hello bandit

yes at some point this thread got side tracked to a different subject....my fault
thanks for your offer to discuss this with you on a one to one basis and i will take you up on that sometime soon but not right now......i seem to have got myself in a bit of a state worrying about it all and i'm getting to mental exhaustion point. i think i need a few days break to calm down a bit .

just to explain briefly what's going on in my head: i don't have any problem with God at all....but i have a problem in knowing what is the right way to go about it. i really LIKE jesus.....the persona, the teachings, but i get tangled up in the dogma and interpretations which vary from denomination to denomination. i have a general understanding of christianity (mainstream) but lack specific knowledge particularly in the subtle differences between opinions. even different groups use different translations of the bible. i am trying to read it all for myself and draw my own conclusions, but i also find it helpful to get personal insights from people which help me to understand what i am looking for and how different people interpret it and why.

anyway...i seem to have got myself a bit bogged down at the moment, and i feel i need to do some more reading....then come back to the philosophy again with a fresh mind.

thanks again
see you soon

i totally understand. the dogma, the interpretations, the translations, the arguing etc. i went through all the same things. when you feel bogged down, that is the best thing to do, think about something different because you will always come back to the topic again. & again. & again

the questions you have are truly deep mysteries & i do believe there are answers, but the answers & understanding will come when it is time & there will be no contradictions, if we keep our hearts & minds open with honesty.

and whenever you are ready Daya, i will help when i can.
see you soon too.

[dayaa]

hello bandit

just a quickie.
the quotes you mentioned above i am not familiar with off the top of my head in context, i'd have to look them up, but i'll try to give a quickie answer just looking at the quotes.
hmm, well....
it seems to be saying that jesus was in some way God or part of God but in human form and he accepted the role as human...a servant (to God...i assume) and carried out that role as human right until death. being in the form of God? i don't know...we're back to the how do you interpret "form" question? it almost seems to be saying that jesus "thought" himself equal to God....because of his "form" ...which form? i don't know. his physical form? (back to the created man is his own image?)....no can't be....because the first verse almost seems to be saying that we should think like jesus....yet it can't possibly mean we should all think ourselves equal to God????? and then it goes on to jesus being made in the likeness of men....so there's your distinction....ok, try again...jesus has some "form" which is God related but the physical form of man. he accepts the role as man. and we all should accept our role as servant of God humbly (and maybe there is some question of a divine spark in all of us?) i'm getting really confused now. it's starting to sound like hinduism . could we be talking about a divine spark (a potential) which if fulfilled by choice and acceptance leads to .....something
i think i'm going to give up and look it up and see the exact context. just looking at those four verses without any context, i've read through it about 17 times already and each time i come up with a different meaning varying from the very simple and straightforward to the making my hair stand on end.
it can't possibly mean what it seems to mean. i need to look it up for clarification. i'm tired....going to leave it for another day....and i thought it was going to be a quickie!
better still, you tell me what it means to you and i'll look it up and see if i agree or not.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by dayaa

hello bandit

just a quickie.
the quotes you mentioned above i am not familiar with off the top of my head in context, i'd have to look them up, but i'll try to give a quickie answer just looking at the quotes.
hmm, well....
it seems to be saying that jesus was in some way God or part of God but in human form and he accepted the role as human...a servant (to God...i assume) and carried out that role as human right until death. being in the form of God? i don't know...we're back to the how do you interpret "form" question? it almost seems to be saying that jesus "thought" himself equal to God....because of his "form" ...which form? i don't know. his physical form? (back to the created man is his own image?)....no can't be....because the first verse almost seems to be saying that we should think like jesus....yet it can't possibly mean we should all think ourselves equal to God????? and then it goes on to jesus being made in the likeness of men....so there's your distinction....ok, try again...jesus has some "form" which is God related but the physical form of man. he accepts the role as man. and we all should accept our role as servant of God humbly (and maybe there is some question of a divine spark in all of us?) i'm getting really confused now. it's starting to sound like hinduism . could we be talking about a divine spark (a potential) which if fulfilled by choice and acceptance leads to .....something
i think i'm going to give up and look it up and see the exact context. just looking at those four verses without any context, i've read through it about 17 times already and each time i come up with a different meaning varying from the very simple and straightforward to the making my hair stand on end.
it can't possibly mean what it seems to mean. i need to look it up for clarification. i'm tired....going to leave it for another day....and i thought it was going to be a quickie!
better still, you tell me what it means to you and i'll look it up and see if i agree or not.

It does not mean to be like God, or like Jesus. It means to be God like, or "godly", in everything done, said, and thought. Knowing we aren't perfect, we strive to be better, and know we are forgiven, even before we stumble. It means to keep trying, and never give up.

Marathons are not won in an instant...

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

it is ok Daya . I have looked at it about 10,000 times & it is a very tough passage for me too.

they are not always this difficult.

i promise to get back to this by monday/tuesday with a couple of different ways that I see it, & look at your interpretations also.

here is the definition used there for the word form in original greek. (not that it helps much this time around) LOL

3444 morphe mor-fay' perhaps from the base of 3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature:--form.

3313 meros mer'-os from an obsolete but more primary form of meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); a division or share (literally or figuratively, in a wide application):--behalf, course, coast, craft, particular (+ -ly), part (+ -ly), piece, portion, respect, side, some sort(-what).


in the meantime, if you want to, get yourself a set of highlight markers. this is what i did until i got them all down....

i used blue to highlight everything about angels
pink to highlight all about Jesus & God.
orange for faith
green for all the verses about the name of Jesus
etc. etc...
this way I was able to get to them quicker & recollection made things clearer as I studied each different topic. I have lots of little notes next to my favorite scriptures too. I dont think God minds because I think He wants us to use it & study it this way. I think a little prayer before & after helps us to learn also.

see you monday & have nice weekend

[Bandit]

ok Daya. here is mine. & I think your interpretation was just fine also.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:


we should think like Jesus did because his mind was always on God. Keep our minds on the Lord. The following kind of tells one way to do this.






6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:



the man Jesus (Who) being in the likeness of God, thought of it as not taking anything away from God. Jesus is equal with God. I think the 'form' here is Jesus obtained this nature & the attributes of God in his life on earth by giving up his own will to do the will of God.



7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:



Jesus Forgot about his own reputation by becoming a servant to God & was made like men.


8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.



The man Jesus found his circumstance as a man, became humble and became obedient to the death of the cross. (God had given Jesus a commandment to lay down his life & Jesus was obedient)

[dayaa]

thanks bandit

see you soon