angels or demons?

dayaa · 05-28-2005, 12:40 AM

hello everyone
my question is general to all religions but i'm posting it here because it's the best example i can think of. how can we ever be sure that we are interpreting things correctly? how can we know if angels or demons are leading us? my example is the "miracles" of crying statues. i understand that christians view such things as miracles which enhance their faith....but bearing in mind the prohibition on "graven images" might not such things as crying statues be demons leading us astray? how can we know? thankyou.

path_of_one · 05-28-2005, 05:49 PM

Well, as a Christian I would go to the Bible for guidance, which tells us that we can know things by the fruit they bear. If someone is bearing the fruits of the spirit, if they are giving honor and glory to God rather than to themselves, if their actions are in line with Biblical ideals, then we can tell that they are in God.

On the other hand, I'm pretty much intuitive as well. Call it the Holy Spirit or intuition or what you will, but I can get a pretty good feel for whether a person or thing is good or evil for me. Whether it will help or hinder me on my path. I follow this inner guidance and avoid activities, things, and people that feel "evil" (lead to wrongdoing, error, sin, etc.).

It depends a lot on how you think about good and evil, angels and demons. Personally, I don't think about it like many Christians, so this is the best answer I can give that would fit with mainstream interpretations without going into a lot of details about my belief system that would probably not be helpful to you. Suffice it to say there is good, there is evil (leading to wrongdoing, error, sin), and there is purposeful evil (willfully harming other people, animals, plants, the earth for one's own gain or satisfaction). I focus more on these categories when making spiritual decisions for myself, rather than on angels and demons. The reasons? For one, what we Christians think of as angels and demons is a combination of Judaic roots and pagan assimilations, so I don't really think of them the way most Christians do. Secondly, my experience and belief is that there are more spirit entities than just angels and demons, and how should react to those?

My question to myself, then, is not: is this of angels or of demons? But rather: will this benefit my spiritual growth, or not? In my still, inner place, do I feel God is guiding me toward or away from this person/thing/experience/etc.?

Cerealkiller · 05-28-2005, 06:56 PM

I agree with path-of-one for the most part. Generally, I think you can "feel" the goodness or badness of a situation, object, person. I remember once when I was younger I was praying and I found myself wondering, how do I know I am praying to the right God? Not in the sense that the Christian God might be wrong, but what if I was trying to pray to the Christian God and was accidentally directing my prayers the wrong way. I think thats where the whole "mystic" element of a religion comes in. The ability to set aside logical thought and just feel your way through something. However, I don't think we can ever be "sure" of anything, especially religious issues. Even when we feel like we have a preacher or icon that is holy, we must be prepared to reject it and admit we have made a mistake.

Faithfulservant · 05-28-2005, 10:08 PM

Not all Christians believe the crying statues are divine.

dayaa · 05-29-2005, 12:40 AM

thank you for all replies
i was a bit confused by the idea of prayers going astray to the "wrong god". i thought there is only one God....just people know him/it by different names.
my original question referred to angels and demons as a way of expressing the idea.....in general i was talking about good/evil thoughts, feelings, direction, guidance from God, temptation to wrong ways. if you are at a fork in the road on matters of faith....how can you know if you are taking the right path? both paths look good in their own way....maybe neither is absolutely right....can you take either if the intention is right? is it better to chose a path and hope for the best rather than sit at the crossroads for ever?

juantoo3 · 05-29-2005, 04:05 AM

Kindest Regards, Dayaa, and welcome to CR!

Quote:

how can we ever be sure that we are interpreting things correctly? how can we know if angels or demons are leading us? my example is the "miracles" of crying statues. i understand that christians view such things as miracles which enhance their faith....but bearing in mind the prohibition on "graven images" might not such things as crying statues be demons leading us astray? how can we know?

I am in agreement with Faithful Servant here, not all Christians see "crying statues" as what they are claimed to be. I could go on about all kinds of reasons to doubt, but out of respect for those who view this differently than I, I will refrain. I do believe you hit the nail on the head with "bearing in mind the prohibition on 'graven images'," at least as far as I am concerned, although I am not prepared to go so far as to claim such things are of devils and demons.

The short answer to your question is that you will know them by the fruit they bear. Things of God do not spread hatred, dissent or discord. Humans are quite good enough at doing such things all by themselves.

Quote:

how can you know if you are taking the right path? both paths look good in their own way....maybe neither is absolutely right....can you take either if the intention is right? is it better to chose a path and hope for the best rather than sit at the crossroads for ever?

Pretty much, yes. All a person can do is look at both sides and weigh the consequences as best they can, ideally with prayer and/or meditation. If one still is undecided and a choice must be made, then make a choice and stick by it, accepting full responsibility for the course you have chosen. And make the best of it!

The only way to travel is one step at a time. Sometimes you might stumble, oh well. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, figure out what you did wrong and keep on walking. Otherwise, you stagnate and get nowhere. If by some chance you find yourself on the wrong path, it will make itself known. Correct yourself and get back on the right path. God forgives, as long as you can forgive others and yourself.

path_of_one · 05-29-2005, 08:15 PM

I thought I should add, as well, a note about the crying statues and whatnot, since I didn't discuss that part. I don't really think about whether they are of God or not, because they're pretty much irrelevant to me. They just don't matter on my path. I understand they are deeply meaningful for some people, but I just don't connect with God through such things, so I don't bother to figure out the causal factors behind them.

Quahom1 · 05-30-2005, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayaa

hello everyone
my question is general to all religions but i'm posting it here because it's the best example i can think of. how can we ever be sure that we are interpreting things correctly? how can we know if angels or demons are leading us? my example is the "miracles" of crying statues. i understand that christians view such things as miracles which enhance their faith....but bearing in mind the prohibition on "graven images" might not such things as crying statues be demons leading us astray? how can we know? thankyou.

Hello Dayaa,

Not to take away from anyone's thoughtful reflections here by anymeans. I simply will point out what we as Christians were taught on any "phenomenon" that might be considered unusual. We are told to "test the spirits", to test to see if it is from God, or from other than God. We are not told to take things at face value. Someone stated by their fruits...very true. Observation and reflection provide great insight into the workings of some "miraculous" occurances.

A statue that cries, yet is passed on down from family to family, with no charge, yet many people come to God because of it in some fashion or form?...perhaps. A Grilled cheese sandwich with the face of Mary mysteriously "toasted" into it being sold for $30,000.00 on E-Bay?...well I think not.

According to the Bible, God's word can not come back void. We may ask, seek, and knock for answers in the Lord's name, and we are promised to receive the truth.

I think that is a pretty good "litmus test" on all things strange and unusual...

v/r

Q

Staffy · 07-01-2005, 04:23 PM

from what i've herd Some christians belive satan has powers similar to god and their was an uprising in Heaven which created the Demons and the devil......??

JJM · 07-01-2005, 07:50 PM

This is exactly why I believe that if a God exists that wishes us to know the truth he would have created a way of guiding us. This is why I think the existence of a divine institution is so necessary and one of the biggest reasons why I'm Catholic. I agree though that we must be ready to realize that we are wrong but it is just because we fallible humans that and infallible guide must be given to us. Otherwise we have no reason to truly believe anything.

As for crying statues and the prohibition on graven images. I don't put a whole lot of faith on such occurrences but I'd like to just make a point on graven images. God has given us two types of laws: Tradition and tradition. Tradition is and infallible thing whose truth is part of God’s very being and which will never change because God is an infinite unchanging being. Tradition is a law that is given for the good of something but isn't necessarily never changing. In my understanding in Judaism no such distinction is made, but in Christianity, even if you don't word it the same way, the distinction is made. Which are graven images? Well soon after the prohibition against them is made God demands that one is made (this golden serpent) and then again not only one be made but that it be used in worship (cherubim on the Ark). So one must conclude that it is part of tradition not Tradition. And the Church has the ability to remove and add such traditions as demonstrated at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts of the Apostles.

JJM · 07-01-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staffy

from what i've herd Some christians belive satan has powers similar to god

Yes some do fortunately for us they are wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staffy

and their was an uprising in Heaven which created the Demons and the devil......??

I think that nearly all Christians believe this except for those who think demons are metaphors of our evil

Quahom1 · 07-02-2005, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJM

...Which are graven images? Well soon after the prohibition against them is made God demands that one is made (this golden serpent) and then again not only one be made but that it be used in worship (cherubim on the Ark). So one must conclude that it is part of tradition not Tradition. And the Church has the ability to remove and add such traditions as demonstrated at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts of the Apostles.

Actually that is an interesting point. Why were part of the instructions in the construction of the Ark of the Covenant, inclusive of Golden Cherubim? Are they not idols? Furthermore, why would the Ark contain tablets of stone to be revered?

Or is it the spirit of God that allegedly resided within the Ark, what was worshipped? If the answer is "visual reminders", then why does man need visual reminders of God? And since this all pertains to God, why would God need to "contained" within a box?

More questions than answers...

v/r

Q

dayaa · 07-02-2005, 02:03 AM

hello jjm and quahom

yes...i noticed exactly the same things recently when i was reading. really it's all very confusing.

maybe bananabrain could shed some light on this....unfortunately he's not around at the moment. also i asked on another thread about God being referred to in physical terms in genesis and someone told me to check other similar threads (maybe it was you quahom...i don't remember)....can someone point me to the right threads please. thankyou.

Quahom1 · 07-02-2005, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dayaa

hello jjm and quahom

yes...i noticed exactly the same things recently when i was reading. really it's all very confusing.

maybe bananabrain could shed some light on this....unfortunately he's not around at the moment. also i asked on another thread about God being referred to in physical terms in genesis and someone told me to check other similar threads (maybe it was you quahom...i don't remember)....can someone point me to the right threads please. thankyou.

Well, I don't think it was me, however, I do know that the old testament specifically states that to look upon the true nature of God would be instant death for a man. So, God appeared as a burning bush in one case, and in another, the presense of God was in the form of a whisper within the ear. Genesis, also points out specifically that Man is made in the image and Likeness of God (them God), male and female, are in the image...and likeness...of God...

Getting away from the Bible and into "fiction", several of the knights of King Arthur's round table sought God, and two saw Him. Gawain looked into the Holy Grail (he was pure in spirit, or chivalrous), and died on the spot. (or maybe it was Gallahad). Perceval, saw the spirit of God out of the corner of his eye, but refused to look at God head on (he was pure in heart), and survived.

Lancelot, though the First Knight, was refused entry into the place that held the holy grail, because of the blemish of his doings with the Queen of Camelot (Arthur's wife, Guinevere). Though he started off as pure in heart, he ended up damaged goods.

Jump to the New testament, and we find that Jesus makes it clear, that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him. He also states that He is "I Am Who Am". Pretty powerful statement, if one cares to read between the lines. Finally Jesus says "What so ever you do to the least of these my bretren, you do unto me." Ooh, once again we are slipping back into the OT where God says that man is in the image and "likeness" of Him. (hate when that happens)

So, by default, each man, woman and child we see, is in the image and likeness of God. Hence, we see the physical form of God every day, when we look into a mirror (let alone each other).

I suspect that was not the answer you were looking for (considering I would like to see GOD as well). But that is what we have to go on, for now.

v/r

Q

dayaa · 07-02-2005, 11:16 PM

hello quahom again and thanks for the reply.
actually i don't really want to see God. i can see enough evidence of him to satisfy my belief. where i am actually coming from here is with a muslim background i am very prejudiced against the idea of jesus being God....but obviously i have some worries about the islam, otherwise i wouldn't be here searching. i am digging into a lot of things (jewish/christian/muslim) trying to keep an open mind (as far as that is ever possible) and piecing together the puzzle....or trying to

. what i am actually getting at here is from the muslim perspective God is something different and does not appear in human from. the jews also insist on pretty much the same view although the actual scriptures seem to suggest otherwise. although i understand God to be in general above and beyond our comprehension, looking at genesis, i wonder about God possibly being able to put a part of himself into human form. on the other thread i mentioned this and got some responses that the bible clearly states that no-one has ever seen God.....well....i'm not suggesting that anyone ever saw God (the father or the almighty) but might they not have seen some part of God incarnate? what i am getting at here is if everyone understands God to be without form (ever) then it seems a bit incompatible with the idea of jesus being "the son of God" or somehow God himself. if, however we take genesis to mean that God was possibly appearing in human form, then it starts to make a lot more sense.
comments welcome please