Anger

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

thank you for the thoughtful and interesting replies.

there are some which i'll go back to and respond to individually as i'm able though i'll offer some of my thoughts on it and how it effects me.

i am an angry person. i've been angry since i was 4 years old; the sort of towering, overwhelming anger that consumes a being blotting out all thought but eliminating the perceived source of the anger.

i remember going to see a psychologist for children when i was 7 or 8, those years are difficult to remember, to help deal with my anger issues. i don't recall much of the visit though i recall that the instructions i left with were to try to tear a towel in half when i became angry, use all my strength and not be afraid of hurting it or myself. i used the doctors well intentioned advice for many years.

as i grew older i read more about anger and how it effects the body and mind and how the doctors recommended treatment actually exacerbates the anger problem, i don't hold any grudges towards the doctor, such treatment is still recommended and in some cases court ordered. in any event, it was clear that the methods that i had at my disposal were not able to help alleviate my anger and the potential for my anger to arise in a wide variety of locales.

when i become angry my skin flushes a deep red, my jaw sets and a certain look comes across my face. i've been told that it is quite apparent when i become angry due to these things and when it happens those i care about become anxious.

(i'm getting somewhat angry just thinking about being angry!)

i would have to say that the first real break through with my anger came during the middle of one of the worst displays that i've had. it was a display of road rage, though not my first one....it was the first time that my spouse was in the car with me. the details of the incident are irrelevant at this point, suffice it to say that when it was all said and done i became convinced of the urgent need to resolve the sources of my anger, to cool those flames that had engulfed me and nearly ended our lives and those in the other vehicle.

the first real break through towards resolving that anger was during a meditation session using a practice called Tonglen or the Equalising of Self and Other or Exchanging of Self and Other. a fancy way of saying putting yourself in someone elses shoes but it's done in a certain manner as are many things in the Buddha Dharma.

over the year i've managed to uproot many anger weeds in my psychic garden through the use of tonglen and taking an analytical approach towards anger as outlined in the Bodhichiyavaratara, the Way of the Bodhisattva; a seminal text in the Tibetan Vajrayana tradition composed by Shantideva. when i take a break from weeding to enjoy the fruit of my labors i'm able to see the next row of weeds that need tending to.

metta,

~v

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

when you are angry is your anger focused on the object or person that caused the anger to arise or on the reasons that such an object or person would cause you to be angry?

I think the anger is focussed on the person but the anger has arisen because of the reasons; so you can't have one without the other (clearly).

The road rage was created by the reasons (other driver driving like an idiot) but the anger cannot be focussed on the reasons, it has to focussed on the perpetrator of the reasons (the idiotic driver). It was the driver you might have wanted to harm, not the reasons; if driven (sorry for the pun) by your anger.

s.

Unrelated PS Vaj: I've been patiently waiting for a contribution from you to http://www.comparative-religion.com/...tml#post151108

but now I'm getting a little angry with YOU!

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

the first real break through towards resolving that anger was during a meditation session using a practice called Tonglen or the Equalising of Self and Other or Exchanging of Self and Other. a fancy way of saying putting yourself in someone elses shoes but it's done in a certain manner as are many things in the Buddha Dharma.

I can see how this could be quite useful if "Other's" action was done in a scatter-brained, unmindful manner. Anger is contracting, squeezing, (or focusing when optimized,) whereas "scatter-brained-ness" or "unmindfulness" can be over-expanded to the point of having no focus, so the action of "Exchanging of Self and Other" can truly be seen as an "Equalizing of Self and Other," preventing an explosion from uncontrolled contraction in "Self" and providing some needed contracting focus in "Other." It might be the best way to go if there is no other action you can take to enact a needed change.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

i'm getting somewhat angry just thinking about being angry!

So cognition leads to emotion, yes?

the first real break through towards resolving that anger was during a meditation session using a practice called Tonglen or the Equalising of Self and Other or Exchanging of Self and Other. a fancy way of saying putting yourself in someone else's shoes

I expect any increase in empathy would be helpful in terms of immediate modulation of the anger response.

In the long-term, I think increased empathy would also affect stable trait anger (as opposed to situanal anger). I believe stable trait anger involves a whole set of egoistic (and therefore dysfunctional) beliefs about self and the world, particularly low self-efficacy expectation that affect the way the person creates/attracts events or situations that they expect to be rewarding.

when i take a break from weeding to enjoy the fruit of my labors i'm able to see the next row of weeds that need tending to.

You are raising your expectations for success, which likely helps a lot.

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I can see how this could be quite useful if "Other's" action was done in a scatter-brained, unmindful manner.

My immediate reaction to your first point is this: what the other person did or how they did it is largely irrelevant to my response to their actions, especially if I can't assess whether or not they were conducting themselves in a scatter-brained, unmindful manner.

Anger is contracting, squeezing, (or focusing when optimized,) whereas "scatter-brained-ness" or "unmindfulness" can be over-expanded to the point of having no focus

So my focused anger" would be a fix for their "scatter-brained-ness" or "unmindfulness"? Shouldn't they work on themselves rather than depend on you?

the action of "Exchanging of Self and Other" can truly be seen as an "Equalizing of Self and Other," preventing an explosion from uncontrolled contraction in "Self" and providing some needed contracting focus in "Other." It might be the best way to go if there is no other action you can take to enact a needed change.

Sounds like an interpersonal boundaries issue. People need to accept responsibility for self-control, which includes exercising their G-d given abilities to create and manage their own emotional environment (I think it's called affect regulation.)

[Francis king]

snoopy, anger and hatred, as u know, and as u know I know, are considered poisons...

however...

anger is not always a poison... not if it's justified... sometimes anger is like manna instead...

of course, unjustifiable anger- somebody treading on your toes, metaphorically or otherwise, suggests the problem is yours- an ego thing, perhaps, yet getting angry because of real injustice, is understandable and all too human...

without anger we would not have had Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat... we would not have had the suffragettes throwing themselves under horses...

my position is now, much as it's always been- choose your fights well...

[greymare]

just come out swinging............

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Francis king

without anger we would not have had Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat...

Rosa Parks denies that anger had anything to do with it when she refused to comply with the bus driver's driver who ordered her to give up her seat:

"I did feel determined to take this as an opportunity to let it be known that I did not want to be treated in that manner and that people have endured it far too long."

http://www.heroism.org/class/1950/heroes/parks.htm

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Francis king

snoopy, anger and hatred, as u know, and as u know I know, are considered poisons...

however...

anger is not always a poison... not if it's justified... sometimes anger is like manna instead...

of course, unjustifiable anger- somebody treading on your toes, metaphorically or otherwise, suggests the problem is yours- an ego thing, perhaps, yet getting angry because of real injustice, is understandable and all too human...

without anger we would not have had Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat... we would not have had the suffragettes throwing themselves under horses...

my position is now, much as it's always been- choose your fights well...

Do you reconcile this with the Buddha Vacana?

e.g.“Having killed anger you sleep in ease.Having killed anger you do not grieve.The noble ones praisethe slaying of anger — with its honeyed crest & poison root — for having killed it you do not grieve.
'He insulted me, hit me, beat me, robbed me' — for those who brood on this, hostility isn't stilled.'He insulted me,hit me,beat me,robbed me' —for those who don't brood on this, hostility is stilled. Hostilities aren't stilled through hostility, regardless.Hostilities are stilledthrough non-hostility: this, an unending truth.Unlike those who don't realizethat we're here on the verge of perishing,those who do: their quarrels are stilled.
Guard against angererupting in body;in body, be restrained.Having abandoned bodily misconduct,live conducting yourself well in body.Guard against angererupting in speech;in speech, be restrained.Having abandoned verbal misconduct,live conducting yourself well in speech.Guard against angererupting in mind;in mind, be restrained.Having abandoned mental misconduct,live conducting yourself well in mind.Those restrained in body — the enlightened —restrained in speech & in mind — enlightened —are the ones whose restraint is secure.”

General Index

s.

[Francis king]

then they are all deluded, and self deluded, which is the biggest sin of all... Anger does not have to be some rage filled foreign entity... anger is normal...
If everything in the world was how its supposed to be, nobody would disobey the law, or speak out against things or stand up for themselves, for we would all be in sway of the doctrine or tenets or rules of the game, which tell us masters and elders all know better than us...

If we lived in Utopia, a sweet place with white picket fences and home made apple pie, living a life free of anger would be easy... if we were all great selfless enlightened beings, then anger would not arise...

anger in response to injustice is normal... nobody says its always useful, but without a sense of injustice, of right and wrong, we would be ppl with no shame, no conscience...

restraint in speech and mind is not good for you if you are being bullied. Telling someone who has just been assaulted on the road not to be angry is futile, and unkind. How you manage the anger, how you channel it, process it, this is the important thing...

If something makes you feel so angry... you should find a way to do something about it, find some way to channel this passion within you to bring about change. Fighting with sticks in the street won't work... you have to be clever, temper the anger like you would a piece of metal to fashion a sword, instead of exploding, plan your assault on the enemy with military precision, aim to win the war instead of just this one small battle, gather an army, and weapons, and attack...

All these "rules" and regulations of our collective religions... great ideas, but generally unworkable unless you live in a cave...

the aim is to see reality for what it is, and cling to neither extremes or ideologies or concepts which are not artful...

living in a world were keeping your mouth shut and your head down is sometimes the only option, lets not glorify the lie and pretend this mouth shut eyes closed head down way of life is somehow more noble...

[Snoopy]

So basically you think the Buddha Vacana is wrong.

s.

[Francis king]

if it makes you salivate as a prospect Snoopy, then yes..

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Francis king

if it makes you salivate as a prospect Snoopy, then yes..

Not at all; I just have trouble understanding you.

s.

[Francis king]

the dharma, like everything else in life, does not benefit from being so righteously applied. At the end of the day, we are only human beings, even if we are told we should tie ourselves up in knots aspiring to be something we're not...

if I get angry in a queue in a supermarket and decide to punch your head in, because you look at me funny, or because you push in front of me, I could do with taking some pills and going to lie down in a darkened room. If I am angry because you have murdered my son and my heart is broken, then anger might be what keeps me going, stops me taking my own life. If I avenge the death, and take up arms myself, nobody could blame me, yet it solves nothing... The anger might fade a little, if I channel it into something useful, I create a fund for children, or I start a campaign to keep guns off the streets instead...

Anger is a poison, something which will eat away at you, but anger is also something that is natural, and realistic, and happens...

ppl get angry because their ego is bruised, sure, and often times the advice to rid yourself of it is a good one... however, a person who sees what happens in the world today and does not get angry? That person I feel great pity for, and am suspicious of, on many levels...

[Snoopy]

Ah, your post in

http://www.comparative-religion.com/...tml#post152658

makes it a little clearer I think.

I just never would have expected that a person who might punch my head in at a supermarket queue could also declare an interest in / belief in / practice the dharma.

s.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I just never would have expected that a person who might punch my head in at a supermarket queue could also declare an interest in / belief in / practice the dharma.

s.

Hmm, it's unlikely that a live fish would be available in a supermarket queue, but if one was available, and I decided to hit someone over the head with it, it wouldn't be out of anger...