Apologetics - Page 2

Quahom1 · 03-23-2005, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

I feel a little hesitant doing this because my desire is not to plant doubt in people's mind nor do i want to harm anyone's faith. These questions that I pose are ones I came across while being an active christian. I didn't set out to disprove the bible. When I first stumbled across these things it was extremely hard for me to look at objectively. I had to go to the very core of my soul and my conscience to look at it from there. I am still sorting some of it out, some is plain to see.

I'll start with Jesus' baptism. I'll assume everyone has a bible so I won't quote the verses. I am using an NIV Zondervan Study Bible.

Matthew 3:13 -17
Mark 1:9-11
Luke 3:21-22
In all the above passages it states Jesus was baptized by John with other people present. A dove appeared over head and God was heard from above as saying that this was his son with whom he was well pleased.
Later John the Baptist while in prison sends out his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the one or should he wait for another. Luke 7:18-20, MATTHEW 11: 1- 3
My question is that if John knew of Jesus' mission which was implied when he said one would come of whom he wasn't worthy to carry his sandals why did he question Jesus? John was there supposedly when Jesus was baptized, did John not see the dove appear over Jesus' head, did he not hear the voice of God from above? If so he wouldn't have sent out the disciples to ask Jesus.

Now we go to John( written much later than Matthew, Mark and Luke)
John 1: 29-34

Where did this come from, all of a sudden a testimony pops up from John the Baptist. John died before Jesus did, this is totally out of line with the other gospel accounts. Here John claims he saw the dove and heard God tell him that Jesus was the one. Why in the other gospels is he sending people out to ask Jesus if he was is the one?

Interesting thought here. My opinion is that John (being human), had a moment of doubt. Here he was in prison (about to be killed), and was afraid, that he missed to boat. I think John was much more afraid of failure than he was of losing his life. But that is my opinion.

v/r

Q

didymus · 03-23-2005, 04:03 PM

No offence but I disagree with that. In his testimony in the gospel of John he clearly states that Jesus was the one before he baptizes him then he confirms the dove and voice of God. I believe that the accounts in Matthew, Luke and Mark are more accurate descriptions of what may have happened.
John didn't know if Jesus was the expected messiah or not, he didn't announce to all before the baptism that Jesus was the lamb of God and didn't see a dove or hear God's voice. The material in gospel of John was clearly put in years later to support arguments against Jesus as the messiah. As I said before all the gospel reports of this can not be true. If John is true then Matthew Mark and Luke are not. If Matthew mark and Luke are accurate then John is out. There isn't much middle ground here that I can see.

didymus · 03-23-2005, 04:05 PM

Another thing I forgot to say. Where did the testimony of John come from? Don't you find it odd that John's testimony of Jesus surfaces 70 years after Jesus' death? Why wasn't this put in the other gospels? It just doesn't add up.

Basstian · 03-23-2005, 05:17 PM

This really comes down on what you choose to believe.
We have a very clear view even today of what the Jews expected the messiah to do. Jesus doesnt fill the bill to them thus they dont accept him as the messiah. They even before Jesus had hoped in others I believe even John was mistaken for a possible messiah. I think it very possible that John could have fallen into the "The Messiah Will Set Up His Kingdom" and in prison facing death not seeing Jesus on a throne doubted even the things he saw and said.
I too have done this same thing doubted what God has done for me what he has showed me and even how he has saved me. I would more than understand why John could have done the same.

When D are you going to write your life story as it happens or when you have time to really sit and reflect on what has transpired as a whole.
I am just glad it was written reading John blesses me each and every time.

didymus · 03-23-2005, 09:31 PM

Basstian, I respect your belief, however, I really can't see it that way. Sure doubt is a powerful thing but in this case, with such an overt manifestation of God(as is depicted in the gospel) any traces of doubt would be crushed.

didymus · 03-23-2005, 09:32 PM

Basstian, correct me if I'm wrong. Are you saying John wrote his testimony while in prison?

Basstian · 03-23-2005, 09:43 PM

nope lol I am 2000 yrs away from when John wrote anything.

Its real easy to get into a place where we doubt everything. And one way to do that is ask questions that no one alive can answer.
But I will tell you what when we see John face to face we will ask him where he was when this was written than we will both know

Quahom1 · 03-23-2005, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

No offence but I disagree with that. In his testimony in the gospel of John he clearly states that Jesus was the one before he baptizes him then he confirms the dove and voice of God. I believe that the accounts in Matthew, Luke and Mark are more accurate descriptions of what may have happened.
John didn't know if Jesus was the expected messiah or not, he didn't announce to all before the baptism that Jesus was the lamb of God and didn't see a dove or hear God's voice. The material in gospel of John was clearly put in years later to support arguments against Jesus as the messiah. As I said before all the gospel reports of this can not be true. If John is true then Matthew Mark and Luke are not. If Matthew mark and Luke are accurate then John is out. There isn't much middle ground here that I can see.

But then Didymus we are in agreement

If John the Baptist was not certain, and was in prison, knowing he was about to die, then he would ask the question about Jesus being the One. As you state, three Gospels (ones addressing the shall we say more learned folk), show John B's concern (and fear of failure). The Gospel of John is the "layman's" Gospel, and was written last. Simple folk do not need complex issues to worry about. John's Gospel is in my opinion, the "milk" Gospel. The other three are the "meat" Gospels.

Ce n'est pas Vrai?

v/r

Q

didymus · 03-23-2005, 10:45 PM

Q- that's a real stretch. I can't imagine that anybody would be that unlearned that they completely change the narrative. Anything can be justified. To me it is plain to see that they do not equate.

Bandit · 03-24-2005, 12:07 AM

just to make sure we are not getting John the baptist and John the disciple mixed up.

didymus · 03-24-2005, 02:02 AM

Q I see it the opposite. John would be the meat gospel if any. It was in John that Jesus became God incarnate, the logos, creator of the universe. There isn't any mention of this in the previous three.

If John was the layman's gospel and they had to dummy it down a bit the chances are those folks wouldn't have been able to read it anyway. I mean if John being confused was too complex for them to grasp how could they have been literate enough to get John' version anyway?

Bandit- it's definitely Jthe Baptist we are discussing. It flows from John 1:19-34.

didymus · 03-24-2005, 02:05 AM

Should we move on or is there more to discuss on this topic?

Quahom1 · 03-24-2005, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

Q I see it the opposite. John would be the meat gospel if any. It was in John that Jesus became God incarnate, the logos, creator of the universe. There isn't any mention of this in the previous three.

If John was the layman's gospel and they had to dummy it down a bit the chances are those folks wouldn't have been able to read it anyway. I mean if John being confused was too complex for them to grasp how could they have been literate enough to get John' version anyway?

Bandit- it's definitely Jthe Baptist we are discussing. It flows from John 1:19-34.

Possibly Did,

That is just the way the Gospel differences were explained to me as a child. And the reason John's Gospel was such an easy read for a child (or for me). Four commentaries on the same set of events, four differing points of view. If they were each cooky cutter identical (or that close), then I'd be suspect of them as a whole (plus we'd only need one really).

v/r

Q

didymus · 03-24-2005, 12:58 PM

I guess this is where we agree to disagree. There are several ways to rationalize the narratives contradicting each other. For me none of these rationalizations suffice. My personal belief is that the gospels portraying John with a seed of doubt are the more accurate ones. The gospel of John flies in the face of that which leads me to believe that John(being written at a much later date) improvised on the previous gospels and smoothed this situation out. I think whoever wrote John knew about the John the B problem and reconciled it.

No matter which way you slice it you have to face up to the fact that either; one account is true and the other is false, they were reconciling the gospels with each other or people had their information mixed up. How can it be that John is doubting in one and stating firmly in the next that he saw, heard and knew Jesus was the one. This is the question noone has answered yet.

Bandit · 03-24-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

How can it be that John is doubting in one and stating firmly in the next that he saw, heard and knew Jesus was the one.

this still does not show the gospels are out of line with each other. you have turned a question by JTB, into the book of John being a cover up and a conspiracy for something without evidence and maybe to support some cause in your mind.

If JTB had never been imprisoned, he would never have asked the question from inside a dark cell where he could not see Jesus.
it is like you are saying 2+2 =4, but 1+1 =3 & people are not allowed to be human in the bible.

i did this topic about JTB, with you once before and your objective never made any sense (except to show the scripture is in error, which you have not done).
My suggestion Did is this...take a black magic marker and scribble out all the verses that you think are cover ups and contradicitons, so you wont have to read them any more.