Apologetics

[Basstian]

Originally Posted by Q

(plus we'd only need one really).

You know reading this statement I recall stories from Foxes book of martyrs about people who gave their lives believing in so much less than we have.
Imagine not having all the gospels epistles strongs commentaries and info we have now.
Would we be willing to lay down our lives based on just one of the gospels or even just what we have been told. Looking for reason to doubt what we have today makes one wonder if blood of these men of faith was shed in vain.

I reading all this dispute I really understand the simple truth of how much more blessed one that believes truely believes and has not seen is over one who has seen and believes.
We in this day and age require more faith than ever to overcome the shadows of doubt that are often cast our way. Professing themselves to be wise they became fools. The truth of Jesus and the Bible can be as hard or as easy as you want to make it.

I just think Didymus your making it hard on yourself. Your questions are valid ones but do they truely need to be asked in this day and age or should we wait till we can ask face to face.

[didymus]

Originally Posted by Bandit

this still does not show the gospels are out of line with each other. you have turned a question by JTB, into the book of John being a cover up and a conspiracy for something without evidence and maybe to support some cause in your mind.

If JTB had never been imprisoned, he would never have asked the question from inside a dark cell where he could not see Jesus.
it is like you are saying 2+2 =4, but 1+1 =3 & people are not allowed to be human in the bible.

i did this topic about JTB, with you once before and your objective never made any sense (except to show the scripture is in error, which you have not done).
My suggestion Did is this...take a black magic marker and scribble out all the verses that you think are cover ups and contradicitons, so you wont have to read them any more.

Bandit, you misunderstand my intent. I do not state that gospel of John is a cover up or false as a whole. I am pointing out the contradiction of the baptism and testimony of John with other gospels.

What does John being in prison have to do with asking the question? He saw and baptised Jesus prior to that. According to the gospel John testified to these things before being locked up. he stated he saw them at the baptism and knew Jesus was the one to come and save the world. If he knew this beforehand and saw the dove descend on Jesus and heard God's voice there would have been no need to ask if Jesus was the one later. This is not a complicated theory is it?
Bandit if my objective in this discussion isn't clear to you then, what can I say? I suggest you take a marker to the parts that you can't justify away. There is a clear inconsistancy in the narratives about John and Jesus. I think if we took a 15 year old and sat him down he would see the point.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by didymus

Bandit, you misunderstand my intent. I do not state that gospel of John is a cover up or false as a whole. I am pointing out the contradiction of the baptism and testimony of John with other gospels.

What does John being in prison have to do with asking the question? He saw and baptised Jesus prior to that. According to the gospel John testified to these things before being locked up. he stated he saw them at the baptism and knew Jesus was the one to come and save the world. If he knew this beforehand and saw the dove descend on Jesus and heard God's voice there would have been no need to ask if Jesus was the one later. This is not a complicated theory is it?
Bandit if my objective in this discussion isn't clear to you then, what can I say? I suggest you take a marker to the parts that you can't justify away. There is a clear inconsistancy in the narratives about John and Jesus. I think if we took a 15 year old and sat him down he would see the point.

no there is not a clear inconsistancy. you just cant stand it because you dont have the answer for questions you come up with. my bible stays in tact every word of it. you are the one who wants to do away with what parts you dont like, of which i can list a dozen off the top of my head.

you have already stated JOHN or the other three gospels are out!
(with your magic marker)

if we put this before a judge in a supreme court, they would most likely throw out your case the very same day because they do not rule on surmizing and guessing.

...dove descend on Jesus and heard God's voice there would have been no need to ask if Jesus was the one later...

who are you to suggest someone cannot ask or has no need to ask a question?
but it is ok for you to create assumptions and build cases on someones question. You lack seriously on this one.

[didymus]

Bandit, if I may add. You are surmising and guessing that John was doubtful of what he saw. It doesn't state that he was doubting anything, that is your theory. The judge would throw your case out as quick as mine. Touche!

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by didymus

Bandit, if I may add. You are surmising and guessing that John was doubtful of what he saw. It doesn't state that he was doubting anything, that is your theory. The judge would throw your case out as quick as mine. Touche!

interesting but i never said John doubted what he saw. his question is not about what he saw. saw. see. saw.

you are the one doubting and most of your objectives are the same...to look for fault which leads to accusation and bring others to that way of thinking.
I dont have a case to prove, you feel that you do that is why you are posting this. when there is no for sure answer, that is when most people move along to something a little more upbeat and profitable. hint.

ok. i am done with this one .

[didymus]

ok, what are you saying he doubted then?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by didymus

ok, what are you saying he doubted then?

I'm going to take a deeper look into this issue, because maybe, just maybe we've missed something (and my curiosity is piqued)

v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

Ok Im going to take a leap here... Correct me if Im wrong but it seems to me that didymus thinks that John the apostle and John the baptist are the same person... or that John the baptist wrote the Book of John. If this is the case then let me reiterate that John the beloved friend and apostle of Christ wrote the book of John..the book of John was the book thats sole purpose was deifying Christ. Both Johns testified of the divinity of Christ but John the baptists purpose was to go before Christ and after Christ came was to fade into the background. John the apostle was with Jesus throughout his ministry.

[didymus]

Faithful, I don't have the 2 John's mixed up. For one, I stated earlier that John the Baptist died before Jesus did therefore making it impossible for him to have written the gospel of John(written around 100AD)

In the gospel of John it clearly states that John the Baptist testified that Jesus was the lamb of God and that he was there for the baptism and saw the dove.
Look at John 1:29-34

[Faithfulservant]

I think we are looking at a man questioning why he would be left in prison after preparing the way for the Lord..We are looking at a man who is human and being a human has doubts about why bad things happen to him when his work is that of God... John was not divine and had no divine understandings of the work of God other than the Holy Spirit who was with him and spoke through him. John was the first martyr and being a martyr held a special place in heaven as being the first of many.. he was also technically the last of the OT prophets.

Matthew presents the gospel as a hebrew for the hebrew mind
Mark presents the gospel writes for the roman mind
Luke presents the gospel for the greek mind
John presents the gospel as an interpretation of the facts of Jesus life rather than a presentation of the facts in historical sequence. It was written for the purpose of deifying Christ.

All had their own interpretation of what they saw and heard...if you have a bunch of people witnessing the same thing then interview them later you are going to have different accounts of what happened.. This alone shows the validity of all of them because each of them are unique in their own way. Jesus did not testify of himself...what truth would be in that he would be called a liar.. He had 4 distinctly different people writing what they saw and heard.

If your whole problem with it is the fact that John may have had doubts then you need to question every person who has doubts at any time.. The fact that it was in the scriptures doesnt mean anything because you saw all of them doubt or lose faith at one time or another. John was a prophet of God he was not Jesus Christ. It seems to me when something like this is brought up as a question of the validity of the bible that a person wants to find something in order to use as a means to question the truth of the bible.

[didymus]

Faithful, what does your comment about each gospel being directed towards a different audience have to do with the discrepancy between gospel of John and the other 3 gospels. I don't follow your logic.

If you believe that John doubted afterwords then hey, that's cool, that's your opinion. My point is that it doesn't say he doubted. I am only going on what it says here.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by didymus

Faithful, what does your comment about each gospel being directed towards a different audience have to do with the discrepancy between gospel of John and the other 3 gospels. I don't follow your logic.

If you believe that John doubted afterwords then hey, that's cool, that's your opinion. My point is that it doesn't say he doubted. I am only going on what it says here.

As you pointed out Did, three of the four Gospels were written within the life time of the men who names are listed as authors. The fourth was written well after the death of the supposed author. However, despite differences all four were put into the 66 books called the Bible. The only conflict seems to be the one you have. We see no problem with the four Gospels. They were God inspired but human esquired.

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

i am not getting back into this but here is basic overlook if some feel they need it.

http://people.ucsc.edu/~mgrivich/The...dingtoJohn.htm

[didymus]

Q-- I guess you're right. It does seem that I am the only one who cares about that. Oh well, to me it is still an important point but I'll let it go unless someone would like to discuss it further.

I guess my reasoning for this is because ever since I was christian I have been taught to read the Bible a certain way. When parts such as this came up I received answers such as these. It was doubt, just have faith, we can't explain everything. The underlying tone was always, "hey, back off on these questions, we don't want to discuss that too much".

I suppose I am listening to that inner voice for once that has always nagged at me about these things. Once I responded to this inner voice it went from a dull whisper, grew louder and now it is crystal clear. I pray all the time about these things. i don't want to ruin someone's faith or make them feel bad. For me the days of ignoring the inner voice, the voice that I hear when I pray to God also, are over. Some have told me it is the devil. They say satan is hunting me down and to question is of the devil. To use your words Q, "horse puckey". I don't buy that anymore. I'm on the other side now and you know what, the weather is nice and satan isn't attacking me. And I have this hunch that is growing and growing that says, "jesus would be proud".

[Faithfulservant]

First off you have to believe when it says the word is from God and therefore the truth. If you can get over your doubts (which is a tactic of satans and I would suggest prayer) and let the Holy Spirit interpret for you.. I think you might find most of these questions answered in Gods time. He is the one that reveals the truth to his children.. Everything we say to you is "horse pucky" You need to seek the answers from the source.. You say you pray.. you need to ask for discernment on the very questions you are having.

I have a hard time posting with you because you answer rudely.. Im going to ask that you please try to be a bit more patient with other posters because not everyone is always understanding what you are asking or the points you are trying to make.. you have pointed that out several times yourself.

Might I also add that satan can appear to be the angel of light and can deceive by sounding like a being of light in any voice he wants to.. You need to check the fruit of the voices you are hearing.

we are told over and over in the bible to just believe or have faith and of course to trust God...