Are Humans Evil Apart from the Grace of God?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

You are asking the wrong question Silas.


1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (Matt 7)

1. You took Matt 7 out of context (as most do). The verse is taking about hypocrates, i.e., those who say "dont do this" and they themselves do it. The Bible says to "make righteous judgements." When we do that, we arent judging, in essence, but rather telling the truth. Here's an example: "Dont be gay." No doubt I will be labeled "wrong" and "intolerant" and "mean" for saying that. But, its the truth, nonetheless. I didnt judge, but instead just reiterated the truth of God's words. 2. Why do you believe that man is good in God's eyes apart from Christ?

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

What do you then call judging whether others are good?

Its called inspecting fruit... we identify the fruit as being good or bad.. Do a word study for the word judge in greek. Like the word Love... there are so many words in greek for love and we have one... its the same for most all of their words..

[lunamoth]

I believe as in Genesis that we are created good. Very good. We are all beloved of God. But we sin. We do evil things, we rebel, we turn away from God. But our being is good.

I did not take the Matt quote out of context. As we judge others we judge ourselves and creation. Deciding whether or not another is 'good' is the way out of the garden.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Its called inspecting fruit... we identify the fruit as being good or bad.. Do a word study for the word judge in greek. Like the word Love... there are so many words in greek for love and we have one... its the same for most all of their words..

We can judge actions and decide whether they are good or bad, helpful or harmful, condcive to life or leading to death. We won't be able to judge perfectly because we live in a fallen world, but I think we are still obligated to try to work toward virtue, the fruit of the Spirit.

But to judge the being of others...way above my pay grade.

We are not to judge but to assume Christ in each face we see.

And yes Love has a much richer meaning that we tend to give it in English. When I say Love I do not mean the emotion for warm fuzzy feelings or attachment or desire. I mean agape, unconditional love, forgiveness, empathy, compassion, loving-kindness, social justice, truthfulness. Love binds them all together:

12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (Col 3)

[Silas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I believe as in Genesis that we are created good. Very good. We are all beloved of God. But we sin. We do evil things, we rebel, we turn away from God. But our being is good.

I did not take the Matt quote out of context. As we judge others we judge ourselves and creation. Deciding whether or not another is 'good' is the way out of the garden.

So you have a Pelagian view of scripture? You believe that we're born good?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Silas

So you have a Pelagian view of scripture? You believe that we're born good?

Nope, not Pelagian. No way we can redeem ourselves.

Christ died for us all.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Nope, not Pelagian. No way we can redeem ourselves.

Christ died for us all.

I didnt know self redemption was part of Pelagianism. So you believe that we're all born good?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Silas

So you believe that we're all born good?

Wrong question.

We're all born human, and all beloved of God. All created good, all fallen, all under God's grace.


Time to go make dinner, play with the kids, get them to bed, etc..

Catch you later.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Wrong question.

We're all born human, and all beloved of God. All created good, all fallen, all under God's grace.


Time to go make dinner, play with the kids, get them to bed, etc..

Catch you later.

Have a good one!

[Prober]

Interesting discussion, Brother!

Anything that makes me get out my Bible is a good thing.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Prober

Interesting discussion, Brother!

Anything that makes me get out my Bible is a good thing.

Amen!

[Thomas]

Hi Silas –

I like what A.W. Pink once said about that cliche' phrase "God loves the sinner not the sin." He said, "it has become costomary to say that God loves the sinner but hates the sin, but thats a meaningless distintion.

Not in this context. What one has to distinguish is between what a person is, and what a person does.

Now 'sinner' is something different to 'milkman' and so in that sense Pink is right, but let's look closer.

Who made man?
God.

Did God make man as sin?
No.

Did God make man to sin?
No.

Then why does man sin?
Because he is free. Sin is a free moral choice – that's what makes it a sin, and not an error, or an accident – it is the informed choice to do something other than the good.

So man might choose evil, but that does mean he is evil, rather he is suffering moral weakness, or failure.

But sin is not the essence of man. The soul is the essence of being, and the soul is subject to sin, but the soul is not sin.

Man might, as Lunamoth says ... and Scripture tells us ... become slave to sin, hostage, addict ... but man is not sin.

Were that so, and if we are created by God, it would mean that God Himself created us for sin, in which case God is either mad, bad, or indifferent.

+++

So my answer is No, humanity is not evil apart from the Grace of God, but it is subject to sin, apart from the Grace of God.

We can be saved, or redeemed, or restored, or renewed, or changed, or reborn, but we do not cease to be essentially us – Thomas does not become Timothy ...

Thomas

[Silas]

Hey Thomas,

I see what you're saying, but I dont agree. Yes God did make us good and by man's own free will he choose to sin, thereby causing all men born after him to be born slaves of sin. So what you said, in light of scripture, does not makes sense to me. Man is not a sinner because He sins, but rather, man sins because he is a sinner. That is what he is. He acts in accordance to his nature. Now, I dont want you to misunderstand me and think that I mean that man can do no good. That is not what I'm what I'm saying. Jesus said, "you being evil can give good gifts." I agree with that, we do many good things (from a human perspective). But, in God's eyes, our best works amount to excrement because it is not done in faith, thus making it sin (Romans 14:23), it is not done to His glory (1 Cor 10:31), it is as filty rags (Isa 64:6), and unlike Christ, our good works are never always done with pure and perfect motives. We are evil in God's eyes apart from Christ. That is a hard saying, because it cuts at our pride. But, to submit to that truth, I feel, will be good since it will make Christ all the more precious.

Later,

Silas

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

We can judge actions and decide whether they are good or bad, helpful or harmful, condcive to life or leading to death. We won't be able to judge perfectly because we live in a fallen world, but I think we are still obligated to try to work toward virtue, the fruit of the Spirit.

But to judge the being of others...way above my pay grade.

We are not to judge but to assume Christ in each face we see.

And yes Love has a much richer meaning that we tend to give it in English. When I say Love I do not mean the emotion for warm fuzzy feelings or attachment or desire. I mean agape, unconditional love, forgiveness, empathy, compassion, loving-kindness, social justice, truthfulness. Love binds them all together:

Love never fails

[Dondi]

Deleted. Double post.