Are there any feminists in this forum ??

[Avi]

I cannot resist. This thread has so much libertarian rhetoric (please see SG's definition of rhetoric above) that I want to come back to it one more time. (Under the title of this thread : feminists, it should be sub-titled: "The revenge of the Libertarians" )

I see libertarianism as a ruse to bring some folks across the party lines from liberal to conservative !!! There are so few members of the Libertarian Party, that they feel compelled to do this.

A couple of examples. First, I have not seen one of the Europeans in this forum come out and say that they think highly of libertarianism. I have not seen Tao, NA, Snoopy or Brian, have a single positive word for it. I think they know it is uniquely American, and a load of nonsense !! (In Britain they call it the "London New Right", this is a more honest name). And from what I have read, in Europe its greatest traction has been in Iceland . (Of course that is neglecting the French and Germans, who we just love to ignor !!)

Sure, everyone wants individual freedom, we do not want government in our bedroom, but that is no excuse of the free trade, predatory practices of libertarians (read Dr. Ron Paul).

Second, where the conservative libertarians have been most effective is drawing interest in the way they have with Janz. From everything I have read Janz write, she is a committed liberal with one (or perhaps a couple) of conservative view points. As a supporter of gun ownership rights she is supporting the second amendment and living in a rural location she is being practical. No one has to follow every liberal idealogy to be a liberal. But that does not make someone a liberatarian either !

I do not believe libertarianism supports feminism. I think libertarians are using it as a means to capture more support at the margins. It is an unsustainable approach. The Claire Luce Booth ladies are a group of expensively dressed, well manicured, smart conservatives. Don't be fooled by them, they have a clear agenda, and are putting it into practice. Remember the first thing that Sarah (Claire Luce Booth) Palin did when she was nominated ? She traded in her Wassila wardrobe for $150k new power outfits !! I still think she should have to pay that back to the US citizens !! Maybe that is why they were going to kick her out of Wassila when she left !!

[Avi]

Oh, yes, another quote for Juan about his hero, WallyMart:

Wal-Mart is currently facing a gender discrimination lawsuit, Dukes v. Wal-Mart Stores, Inc., which alleges that female employees were discriminated against in matters regarding pay and promotions. If the class action is certified, it would be the largest such lawsuit in history, covering 1.5 million women according to the plaintiffs.[122]

Wal-Mart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What a surprise !!

[immortalitylost]

Lol, Avi, I am not necessarily "right wing" in fact, I'm not any wing, I've left the building entirely. I believe deeply in many of the social aspects of Liberalism. The only difference, is I would rather have society working towards social goals, rather than the government, particularly the federal government, ie. I'd rather give someone that is hungry food myself than pay the government to do this for me.

To tell you the truth I don't really care about libertarianism, or liberalism, because like has been said here before, they are all just more ism's, lol. What I'm really for is downsizing the federal government, and businesses, to a more manageable level. But how is that to happen? People are always going to be greedy. The rich will get richer and the poor poorer. Some people will help, but it will never really be enough. I dunno. It's just, there is really no "right choice" when it comes to politics. There are better choices. I believe Paul to be a better choice. You believe otherwise. It's all opinion. And data isn't facts mosttimes, it's just numbers and words aligned to support an opinion. Or at least it has been in most cases I've seen.

Oh, and Walmart has the lowest prices. You don't get the lowest prices unless some dealings with the devil are had, yano? They may not be perfect, but it doesn't matter because most people shop there anyhow. (I'm having one of those glass half empty days, can ya tell, lol)

Wil, I tink you have a good point about the little kindnesses by men, and which ones are women willing to give up to have perfect equality.

Like you said, having doors opened for them, the man paying for their dinner, the man being the breadwinner, and what about this one... you know that unspoken rule among men, how you just don't hit a girl? What about that one? Should guys be able to punch girls for saying something they would punch a guy for saying?

I mean, that would be equal treatment, by all rights, lol.

I think girls get away with saying a lot because of this rule. Like seriously, girls can talk soooo much crap to a guy that if the girl was another guy, they'd be laid out for it. But girls get away with it, because they're girls. Is that fair? To be fair and equal, they should be treated equally, no? Lol, just something to think about...

(and I'm not advocating that men should be able to beat their wives, k, lol, I just think that girls get away with a lot of crap just because they're girls, and they wouldn't want to give that up.

Also, like what about girls that knowingly use their hawtness to get what they want? Like, in an equal world, you'd have to give that up, right? I always find that funny, lol, it's not alright for guys to oggle girls, you know, unless the girl wants something, then she'll take advantage of that to the fullest. (like to get better tips if ur a waitress) Hehehe, just speaking the truth girls, you know I am, lol. *wink*

What about the "selective service" ie. draft? Any feminists for woman having to sign up with the guys? Anyone? Lol, yup wil, you definitely got a good point there.

Also, I think it's crap that the military is lowering their standards so that women can take part. That's utter crap. If ya can't handle it, you shouldn't be there. If you can, by all means, do it. I just think lowering any requirements isn't equality, it's pandering. Opportunity is one thing. Special treatment is a whole other ballgame. It's what we should be trying to prevent, not trying to encourage.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Avi

Wil and SG, sometimes a picture is more effective in making the argument:




And for those that like words more than pictures:


Wal-Mart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So why scream here?

How many letters have you written to those female Walton billionaires?? Those rotten females that are anti-woman??
Are these folks protesting in front of their homes?

fat chance getting a successful boycott against walmart...

[nativeastral]

Originally Posted by Janz

Sometimes I feel old enough to be a first waver.. however, after reviewing the history of feminism, I started out as a Liberal Feminist but in my old age, I have become a Libertarian Feminist with a Christian Feminist theological streak. I know that I tend to be a paradoxical oxymoron.

For more see: Feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and Wendy McElroy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WendyMcElroy.com: Capitalism versus the free market

My life choices seem like they are more traditional because I am a strong supporter of family; however one chooses to do that. I have never been a radical because I see change happening from within not from tearing down. Intellectually, being a radical is appealing but I don't like extremism.

I like McElroy's distinction between capitalism and free market:

"Another factor made me draw a line between my personal embrace of laissez-faire capitalism and my public advocacy of the free market. We live near a Mennonite community that functions along communal, almost socialistic lines. It functions well, it prospers, members can leave at any time, the members are good neighbors to all. In a free market, their choice to be communal is as valid as my choice to function within the capitalistic sectors of society. We are all free to make whatever voluntary exchanges fit our needs, beliefs, personalities, etc. That's what I want for society: not necessarily a capitalistic arrangement but a free market system in which everyone can make the peaceful choices they wish with their own bodies and labor."

Really enjoying Wendy's site, a wealth of information and historical essays redressing some of my ignorance and giving more insight into contemporary thought patterns on the American individualistic ethos vis a vis the state.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by nativeastral

Really enjoying Wendy's site, a wealth of information and historical essays redressing some of my ignorance and giving more insight into contemporary thought patterns on the American individualistic ethos vis a vis the state.

Yes, NA and Janz, I agree, this is quite interesting stuff, but it is neither feminist or compassionate.

Wendy describes her roots as objectivist, and I am quite familiar with Ayn Rand, I read "Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugs" in my twenties and was very much impressed by them both. As a young engineer, Atlas was especially resonating. I was also fortunate to see Rand give a talk at the Northeastern University Ford Series in the 1980's and she was a remarkable speaker as well.

Fortunately, as I have matured beyond those early exposures I have come to understand that life is not really as she describes in her objectivist theories. She essentially says that life is all about "me". That everything that is done, everything that is great, is done for "me". NA, I know that you are interested in philosophy, and I think you will find that Ayn Rand and Objectivism is quite sophomoric (that is why they are usually discovered and loved by college students).

Well the reality is that things thare are done that are really great are not done for "me" at all. They are done because someone has a vision for a better world, and often it is to help OTHERS !! Something difficult for the objectivists, Republicans and Libertarians to understand.

So NA, no Ayn Rand and the Objectivists do not give good insight to the American psyche. Also, for the reasons I have been giving, they are not feminist either. They are free market politicos.

Better insight from Hillary Clinton, Gloria Steinem, Naomi Wolf and Betty Friedan.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Avi

I cannot resist. This thread has so much libertarian rhetoric (please see SG's definition of rhetoric above) that I want to come back to it one more time. (Under the title of this thread : feminists, it should be sub-titled: "The revenge of the Libertarians" )

I see libertarianism as a ruse to bring some folks across the party lines from liberal to conservative !!! There are so few members of the Libertarian Party, that they feel compelled to do this.

Gee, Avi, with all of the anti-feminist policies on the right, and all of the anti-feminist policies on the left, where did you expect the feminists to go?

Sure, everyone wants individual freedom, we do not want government in our bedroom, but that is no excuse of the free trade, predatory practices of libertarians (read Dr. Ron Paul).

Free trade = free choice, which is good for feminists. (And there are just so few of those darned libertarians to pin all of the predatory free-trade practices you want to pin on them.)

Second, where the conservative libertarians have been most effective is drawing interest in the way they have with Janz. From everything I have read Janz write, she is a committed liberal with one (or perhaps a couple) of conservative view points. As a supporter of gun ownership rights she is supporting the second amendment and living in a rural location she is being practical. No one has to follow every liberal idealogy to be a liberal. But that does not make someone a liberatarian either !

So you are admitting that the liberals are interested in taking away Constitutional rights.
Are you also trying to dictate to Janz what she should and shouldn't believe, and what she should call herself?

I do not believe libertarianism supports feminism. I think libertarians are using it as a means to capture more support at the margins.

Oh, you mean females?

It is an unsustainable approach. The Claire Luce Booth ladies are a group of expensively dressed, well manicured, smart conservatives. Don't be fooled by them, they have a clear agenda, and are putting it into practice.

Like supporting foreign feminist movements?

Remember the first thing that Sarah (Claire Luce Booth) Palin did when she was nominated ? She traded in her Wassila wardrobe for $150k new power outfits !! I still think she should have to pay that back to the US citizens !!

That was money from the Republican party, not from the government, and the issue has already been legally examined. (One example how the right wing treats women like paper dolls, and the left wing wants to blame the woman for it. Doncha just love the cultural rhetoric thrown in as garnish? Nice touch.)

[wil]

Hillary Clinton feminist??

I didn't know the feminist mantra was to sing 'Stand by your man' for thirty years and umpteen infidelities.

[Avi]

Originally Posted by wil

Hillary Clinton feminist??

Wil, Hillary is a strongly idealogical liberal, therefore she is strongly feminist. You may be personally turned off by her personality, many man were and still are. I used to be too. Especially the poor way that she handled the health care issue when Bill was President. But I think her move from the senate to Secry of State is a great one for her. It gives her real international experience, and puts her in the major leagues. Here recent snap at the reporter that asked her if she would consult with her husband about a policy issue, it turned out was mistranslated when it was asked to her. So she snapped back saying, she will make the decision not her husband.

So I have to ask, can you handle a strong women as Secry of State ? How about President ? I am not talking about an amatuer like Sarah (Clair Booth Luce) Palin.

I didn't know the feminist mantra was to sing 'Stand by your man' for thirty years and umpteen infidelities.

Wil, that is below the belt, not like you . Is it Hillary's fault that her husband was a bum when it came to women ? Is it fair to hold that against her ? Be very careful how you answer, the libertarians on this tread can be brutal if you answer chauvinistically .

(One very funny thing is I keep getting pop up ads now on this website of conservative female politicians, Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter, etc. )

[Avi]

I decided to do a search to find out how formidable our hero, Dr. Ron Paul, was during the last election.

Although he suspended his campaign, he appeared on the ballot in Montana[15] and Louisiana[16] in the 2008 general election. He was also listed in some states as a write-in candidate. He received nearly 20,000 votes...

Ron Paul presidential campaign, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why are we even wasting our bits and bytes ? This guy was the biggest joke of the 2008 election. Remember H. Ross Perot ? This guy makes Ross Perot look like Abe Lincoln.

Libertarianism is a figment of some Republican's minds. It is like an artifact of an academic discussion. Not related to feminism, for sure.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Avi

A couple of examples. First, I have not seen one of the Europeans in this forum come out and say that they think highly of libertarianism. I have not seen Tao, NA, Snoopy or Brian, have a single positive word for it. I think they know it is uniquely American, and a load of nonsense !! (In Britain they call it the "London New Right", this is a more honest name). And from what I have read, in Europe its greatest traction has been in Iceland . (Of course that is neglecting the French and Germans, who we just love to ignor !!)

LIBERTARIAN FEMINISM IN BRITAIN, 1860-1910 (pdf)

[dauer]

Originally Posted by wil

Hillary Clinton feminist??

I didn't know the feminist mantra was to sing 'Stand by your man' for thirty years and umpteen infidelities.

I wonder if maybe they're just in an open relationship and politically it was easier to say Bill cheated than that they swing. I mean, they're of the right generation and political persuasion for that to be a possibility. And Hillary is a very strong woman. I don't see her as the type that would be likely to stand by Bill without good reason to do so following his infidelity (not that there are no other possible good reasons to stay with him.)

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Avi

I decided to do a search to find out how formidable our hero, Dr. Ron Paul, was during the last election.



Why are we even wasting our bits and bytes ? This guy was the biggest joke of the 2008 election. Remember H. Ross Perot ? This guy makes Ross Perot look like Abe Lincoln.

Libertarianism is a figment of some Republican's minds. It is like an artifact of an academic discussion. Not related to feminism, for sure.

Dr Paul ran as a Republican, Avi, not as a Libertarian.
Your post is like saying that since Hillary Clinton received so few votes in the final presidential election, that feminism is a figment of some Democrats' minds.

[dauer]

Avi,

I'd like to make a suggestion to you that I think holds true both in this thread and in other discussions:

the world probably isn't as Manichean as you seem to think. There's probably a lot of nuance, very little black and white. If you tend to say democrat=good, republican=evil and not-dem=republican then I think you'll fail to appreciate all that nuance. This is similar to your apparent stance that rational=liberal, superstition=conservative and non-rational=superstition in terms of the types of arguments and reasoning that you are applying.

[Janz]

I am finished with this discussion. Mainly because I think that dauer has summed it up quite well and I am tired of explaining the nuances. Who cares if I am a liberal or a left libertarian? "I yam what I yam and tha's all what I yam." -- Popeye the Sailor