As a Christian what are your thoughts?

[bob x]

Well now, I've had to think back on the question, "when in my life have Christians, particularly conservative Christians, been kind to me?" I currently have a good friend on another board, who helps me a lot with studying the ancient Greek and otherwise is kindly, and she is a staunch believer in the Pauline theology and the reality of the divine incarnation, virgin birth, miracles and resurrection of Jesus; but also a staunch opponent of fundamentalism, regarding some of the New Testament as pseudepigraphic and various of the old moral injunctions as reflections of the primitive state of societies back then rather than as eternal verities. There is another friend on the boards who is similarly conservative in ideology, though very much "live and let live" in his attitudes. For strictly fundamentalist friends, though, I would have to go back to John from high school (got into High Church Episcopalianism, showed me around New York City and introduced me to Canon West of "the Cathedral of St. John the Unfinished" and Madeleine L'Engle, the children's books author, both very solid and interesting people) and Hunter from college (charismatic street preacher; I liked him even if I didn't agree with him much; but the "Maranatha" group he was involved in started getting very cultish and I had to detach from those people)-- but that's over 30 years ago now. In the years since, Christians of the Bible-believing type have gotten harsher and harsher, while I have gotten less willing to put up with it. I am only "semi-out": I do not make a secret of it if anyone asks, but don't make a point of telling everyone either; when I hear nasty (or downright vicious) remarks and jokes, which is increasingly often as Christians get bolder in their rudeness, I generally bite my tongue (you might not expect it from how I act here, in safe anonymity, but in the offline world I am quite shy and dislike confrontation).

"For anyone to believe it is their sacred duty to persecute, oppress or even kill you, they must have incredible (and/or sufficient) confidence that what they are doing is right."
Yep.

"I don't know if that means that Catholics and Orthodox Christians are less likely to be your oppressors and persecutors. "
I haven't had any bad experience with the Orthodox. The Catholic archdiocese, however, went 50/50 with "the Family" in promoting the anti-gay ballot initiative, which was distressing since that kind of thing had formerly been more a Protestant (specifically "sola scriptura" Protestant) monopoly.

"I can't agree with you though, BobX, when you say u feel that there's only a few good eggs in the christian camp- you're there, I'm there, AndrewX is there, Cyberpi is there, madeinrussia89 is there... "
You are seriously mistaken if you think I am a "Christian" of any kind. I am a Buddhist. AndrewX is way beyond "liberal Christian", downright "radical", the type that the Bible-thumpers would not call a "Christian" at all: and as I have said, I have often had kindness from Christians who are outside the circles of those who base their beliefs principally on adherence to the text of the Bible.

"don't worry yourself about the bible thumpers, ppl- I can assure you they are most definately not in the majority... "
Around where I live, they are. You're an ocean away. I would be glad to emigrate if it was financially feasible.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Francis king

...I can't agree with you though, BobX, when you say u feel that there's only a few good eggs in the christian camp- you're there, I'm there, AndrewX is there, Cyberpi is there, madeinrussia89 is there... even Mee and Quahom are getting there... (sorry if that offends u, Mee, Quahom) don't worry yourself about the bible thumpers, ppl- I can assure you they are most definately not in the majority... most of us just dig the vibe... and that's what it's all about, at the end of the day...

adios

...no offense offered, none taken...

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Francis king

cyberpi, I'm glad u think I'm maybe a bit hard, as it shows u have a heart, but as far as I see, proletyzing is not conversation- it's conversion!

I would have said you are soft. Across several threads it sounds like you fear that a person is susceptible to hypnosis. That people are susceptible to suggestion. Susceptible to being converted rather than choosing to convert. A back door that makes a person fragile to words. Deep down you fear the words and it makes you angry. If I said, "Go jump from an aircraft... its great", have I proselytized you and converted you to be a skydiver? It is your choice. I personally don't benefit whether you jump or don't, and any mistrust of my words certainly does not offend me whereas some people will literally have a hernia if you don't obey them. Now that is a behavior I'd rebuke... if the guy had a sickle in hand, gun, or excessive girth with wires coming out of it then that changes everything. That is coercion... I view that uninvited words are not. If I asked the guy on the bus to leave me alone and he keeps pestering me then he'd hear a rebuke from me he has never heard before, with words from whatever religion he wants to preach for.

[madeinrussia89]

My previous joke was meant to lighten the mood, not to hurt, but I do apologize if it did.

The voting patterns of evangelicals in America can't be depended on to represent Christians. But, at the same time you also cannot expect someone to be okay with your lifestyle when in their religion it is a serious sin (to practice), or to " get over it ", and then vote for the support of it. No matter how people may try to cover it up, the act is a grave sin to commit in every major branch of Christianity, and in Islam, and always will be. Sola scriptura or Prima scriptura, doesn't matter, it is the same across the board.

While in Christianity we are taught to condemn the sin, we shouldn't condemn the person, and that's a mistake many make.

But, if you treat Christians with contempt, and Christianity with contempt solely because of this single conflict in thought (or many, not sure), most of the time that is all you're going to get in return.

There are plenty of places to emigrate to that are financially feasible, if you are willing to live in a 3rd world country.

[Francis king]

but ppl are suceptible to cohersion, defrauded, brainwashed and generally messed about every day, everywhere and in every strata of society... religion is no different... I myself have been loved bombed, lied to and buttered up by ppl desperate for me to convert to their path, not because I am rich, not because I am pretty, not because of my great contacts, but because they foolishly think everyone should think like them... so yes, it is a fear of mine that ppl are converted rather than choosing to convert...

as for assuming you are a christian, BobX, the title of the post says- as a christian what are ur thoughts, so it was a fair assumption to make...

.. blessed are the poor, the weak, the sick, for they will be open to the message... doesn't sounds like those involved choose to be christians because they want to let Jesus in... no... they want to be healed, they want their prayers answered, they are looking for strength... but instead of giving the money, or the medicine, we instead give them doctrines which tie them up in knots and make life even harder than it was when they started...

hardly seems like good news, to me...

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Francis king

.. blessed are the poor, the weak, the sick, for they will be open to the message... doesn't sounds like those involved choose to be christians because they want to let Jesus in... no... they want to be healed, they want their prayers answered, they are looking for strength... but instead of giving the money, or the medicine, we instead give them doctrines which tie them up in knots and make life even harder than it was when they started...

hardly seems like good news, to me...

One of the most important things in life: your innocence and spontaneity. Be innocent and be yourself. Don't be a tool, an instrument to be used. Don't be enslaved by dogma and semantics. Be true. Be a real person. Speak your mind. Be natural.

Be no slave of indoctrination. Be no gear, wheel or driving belt for the clockwork. No lamb led to the slaughter . . .

Keep your eyes open so you can see and not be blind.

[bob x]

But, at the same time you also cannot expect someone to be okay with your lifestyle...

Whoa. It's not my "lifestyle", it's my LIFE. It is my very heart and soul that you hate.

While in Christianity we are taught to condemn the sin, we shouldn't condemn the person, and that's a mistake many make.

What you are condemning IS me.

But, if you treat Christians with contempt, and Christianity with contempt solely because of this single conflict...

Solely because Christians regard me with contempt? What you give is what you get. You have chosen to be my enemies, although I did nothing to you.

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by bob x

Whoa. It's not my "lifestyle", it's my LIFE. It is my very heart and soul that you hate.

How can a sexual orientation be your ENTIRE life? That's like saying heterosexuality is my life, but that's ridiculous. Your life doesn't revolve around homosexuality and my life doesn't revolve around heterosexuality.

Is your heart filled with nothing but homosexuality? I don't think so.

What you are condemning IS me.

I'm not condemning YOU, I'm condemning your possible ACTIONS (if you engage in them, which you have eluded to in the past).

Solely because Christians regard me with contempt? What you give is what you get. You have chosen to be my enemies, although I did nothing to you.

Regard you or regard homosexuality activity with contempt? There is a difference, you are not your orientation, your orientation is not the essence of your being.

You have chosen to make Christians your enemies by condemning them for not accepting homosexual actions. That doesn't mean they can't like YOU, they just aren't going to agree with those kinds of actions.

What else do you expect? The Christian Church isn't going to change the Logos (which they can't do anyway) just because someone only likes/prefers only homosexual activity and won't admit/doesn't believe it's a sin.

[bob x]

"How can a sexual orientation be your ENTIRE life? "
It is the beauty that I see, and the love that I feel in my heart. It is not my ENTIRE life, no, but I cannot just cut my heart out. That would no longer be "me".

"That's like saying heterosexuality is my life, but that's ridiculous."
If I tell you, "I despise the way you care about your husband and children, and will do everything in my power to make it difficult for you to tend to their needs-- but we can still be friends, right?" how would you respond?

"I'm not condemning YOU, I'm condemning your possible ACTIONS (if you engage in them, which you have eluded to in the past). "
My life has been completely celibate in most years out of the past twenty-odd. I hope you are happy to hear that, because that is certainly a misery for me.

"That doesn't mean they can't like YOU, they just aren't going to agree with those kinds of actions"
If you cannot be happy for me when I feel joy, but only "like" me when I am miserable, what kind of a friend are you?

"The Christian Church isn't going to change the Logos "
I thought you believed that Jesus was the Logos. Instead you worship a dead book.

[madeinrussia89]

If I tell you, "I despise the way you care about your husband and children, and will do everything in my power to make it difficult for you to tend to their needs-- but we can still be friends, right?" how would you respond?

Caring about someone, the act of caring about someone's welfare - whether they live or die, is never wrong. And it's just fantastic how you assume every christian wants to stop your insurance coverage from going to your partner or vice versa, like we're all financial vampires trying to suck the house out from under you. Not true, not true at all.

"I'm not condemning YOU, I'm condemning your possible ACTIONS (if you engage in them, which you have eluded to in the past). "
My life has been completely celibate in most years out of the past twenty-odd. I hope you are happy to hear that, because that is certainly a misery for me.

And that's good for you. Celibacy is no bad thing.

"That doesn't mean they can't like YOU, they just aren't going to agree with those kinds of actions"
If you cannot be happy for me when I feel joy, but only "like" me when I am miserable, what kind of a friend are you?

Because that joy is embedded in sin, if you are referring to having sex with another man, I don't really know what you are referring to as joy other than in that context. Christians generally aren't going to be happy for someone who is delighted in the false joy of sinning. Now, if you choose to turn away from sin, whole different story.

I thought you believed that Jesus was the Logos. Instead you worship a dead book.

Jesus is the Logos made flesh, and the Bible is very much the word of God and certainly not "dead".

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

I'm not condemning YOU, I'm condemning your possible ACTIONS (if you engage in them, which you have eluded to in the past).

Regard you or regard homosexuality activity with contempt? There is a difference, you are not your orientation, your orientation is not the essence of your being.

I don't think Bob is talking about actions here. He is talking about emotional needs, emotional afflications and a state of mind. That is why he says "this is my life." He is not saying, my actions are my life. He is saying, my life is how I feel. That is why he said, "what you condemn is me."

Sure, if you condemn actions but not a person, you'd be right. What Bob is saying is that if you condemn homosexuality, you are not condemning someone's actions, but their feelings. That's because homosexuality is not about what you do, but what drives what you do -- your feelings. Bob is a homosexual in the mind, not the body.

You have made it clear that you condemn the behaviour, but do you condemn the state of mind? I think he wants us to understand him on these terms. The question then is, if one understands the mind, would one, then, still condemn the behaviour?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I don't think Bob is talking about actions here. He is talking about emotional needs, emotional afflications and a state of mind. That is why he says "this is my life." He is not saying, my actions are my life. He is saying, my life is how I feel. That is why he said, "what you condemn is me."

Sure, if you condemn actions but not a person, you'd be right. What Bob is saying is that if you condemn homosexuality, you are not condemning someone's actions, but their feelings. That's because homosexuality is not about what you do, but what drives what you do -- your feelings. Bob is a homosexual in the mind, not the body.

You have made it clear that you condemn the behaviour, but do you condemn the state of mind? I think he wants us to understand him on these terms. The question then is, if one understands the mind, would one, then, still condemn the behaviour?

Perhaps he is looking in the wrong place or at the wrong being for the fulfillment of his emotional needs...

Turning to any human for fulfillment of deep needs is a failed endeavor from the start. That is reserved for the One and only who can meet those needs, time and time again, and never fail at it. Now, the fulfillment part may come from a human being, but that human being will have been sent by God who answers the plea. On the other hand, God might do the fulfilling directly.

We can not tell God how to fix our broken "toy"...only that it is broken, and we ask Him to fix it...then stand back and let Him do his work, for us.

Bob, wants it done his way, and God doesn't work that way. God works His own way, and wants Bob to accept that and be patient for the best results. Bob has a problem with that, so God and Bob are at an impasse...

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I don't think Bob is talking about actions here. He is talking about emotional needs, emotional afflications and a state of mind. That is why he says "this is my life." He is not saying, my actions are my life. He is saying, my life is how I feel. That is why he said, "what you condemn is me."

Sure, if you condemn actions but not a person, you'd be right. What Bob is saying is that if you condemn homosexuality, you are not condemning someone's actions, but their feelings. That's because homosexuality is not about what you do, but what drives what you do -- your feelings. Bob is a homosexual in the mind, not the body.

You have made it clear that you condemn the behaviour, but do you condemn the state of mind? I think he wants us to understand him on these terms. The question then is, if one understands the mind, would one, then, still condemn the behaviour?

I tried to make it a point to say homosexual actions and not feelings. You can have an inclination to have sex with another man (although I'm not promoting it by any means), but if you pull yourself back from doing the actual action, then look, you have pulled yourself away from sin, Good job. To turn away from sin is exactly what God wants us to do.

I am not one to condemn someone's state of mind, thoughts, feelings. How could I possibly know them? I am not living in your psyche. Also, I am not a Catholic, while thought is important, it does not equal action.

It doesn't matter if you understand why someone thinks what they do, that doesn't make it any less correct to condemn the behavior.

This is a really bad analogy, so take no offense because I am not connecting homosexual actions with it, but I'm going to use it to make a point.

If we understand why a pedophile rapes a child, that doesn't make raping the child any less worth condemnation. It's still a terrible terrible sin.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

I tried to make it a point to say homosexual actions and not feelings. You can have an inclination to have sex with another man (although I'm not promoting it by any means), but if you pull yourself back from doing the actual action, then look, you have pulled yourself away from sin, Good job. To turn away from sin is exactly what God wants us to do.

I am not one to condemn someone's state of mind, thoughts, feelings. How could I possibly know them? I am not living in your psyche. Also, I am not a Catholic, while thought is important, it does not equal action.

It doesn't matter if you understand why someone thinks what they do, that doesn't make it any less correct to condemn the behavior.

This is a really bad analogy, so take no offense because I am not connecting homosexual actions with it, but I'm going to use it to make a point.

If we understand why a pedophile rapes a child, that doesn't make raping the child any less worth condemnation. It's still a terrible terrible sin.

I don't think it is the "body" one lusts after, that God hates, but rather the "lust" after the forbidden that He hates. To be attracted to the opposite sex is natural. To be attracted to the same sex is not natural (it makes no sense at all).

To love those of both sexes, in an other than sexual way, is quite frankly, what we're supposed to do.

It's that physical sex thing that hangs everybody up. But even that can be overcome.

What really gets people is that alternative physical sex thing, forced upon society, and "oh, by the way...your children will be taught it too, whether you like it or not...and you will acknowledge us and you will accept us and you will put up with us and you will pay for us, and you will like it, because we deserve it and God has nothing to do with society because God does not exist, and that is what we are going to instill in your children, because we know better than you, and there is nothing you can do about it because we are the new echelons, and you are quaint and outdated and ready for extinction..."

Yeah? Not on my watch...so help me God.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Does our uneasiness with homosexuality really come from God? God hates the sin for sure, but isn't it a matter of scale? The same text that puts homo's in hell has liars flying in the aisle seat. Nobody is all that outraged about living in a world chock full of liars even though God hates their sin as much as fags. Of course it's rare that you see a liar pride parade, so maybe it's more about being out and honest? So is it really just about degrees of socially acceptable denial?

Chris