As a Christian what are your thoughts?

[Tao_Equus]

Ohhh how I'd love to chime in....
You now have to applaud my self control

Tao

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Ohhh how I'd love to chime in....
You now have to applaud my self control

Tao

No, please "chime in"...the suspense is killing me...(lol)

[China Cat Sunflower]

About Christians being bigots?

I think that straight people fear and distrust gay people. I'm not entirely sure why that is. I don't really understand why gay people would want to be Christians, either, though. It's kind of like black people wanting to join the KKK. Either gay people are going to hell, or God is going to save them based on some other criteria. Which? Or, are there degrees of hell and heaven? If you're gay and you lie about it do you go to double hell? If you're queer but you're sorry do you go to probational heaven?

Chris

[bob x]

Russia:

Desiring your wife or husband is something God has given you

It isn't what God gave ME. God gave me something else, but my sense of beauty and love is as precious and holy to me as yours is to you.

what makes someone happy isn't necessarily the best thing for them

Keeping them unhappy is "best"? Explain to me what is GOOD about that. I hope you would agree that, all others being equal, joy is a better thing than misery? I don't know, maybe you don't.

Not "every" Christian, just the majority.
If you mean Republican Evangelicals, sure, but there are a lot of Christians that don't fit into that mold

Just not around where I live.

Always Christians, huh? Never Muslims?

Where I live, yes. I know that Muslims are even worse, where they are in power, but they are not very politically active around here. All of the actions that have been taken to do me hurt have been by Christians, every one, without exception, that's just the facts.
I said I had not had any problems specifically with the Orthodox, but that again is because they are not very numerous or active around here; where they are in power, they are as brutal as Muslims:
Riot troops break up a gay rights rally in Moscow - International Herald Tribune

but only to whether it violates the letter (the "dead" letter, as Paul called it) has nothing to do with Jesus, but rather has more in common with his crucifiers.
Except that that " dead letter " is the Logos

Not according to either Jesus or Paul.

it really wasn't a comparison between the sin of homosexual activity and the sin of child-raping, they really aren't comparable sins

So, you didn't have any comparison or analogy to make, you were just being offensive for the sake of being offensive? It is typical of Christians to find some excuse for working pedophilia into the conversation, and say that they just cannot think of any other analogy to make: "out of what your heart is filled with, your mouth speaks". Pedophilia accusations are the most common "justification" given for murdering us: the "good Christian" who held me at gunpoint gave that as his motive, for example, and a friend of mine did lose his life over such a slander.

The only reason I used it because it was a stronger (much) image

Ah, so you didn't just want to be offensive, you wanted to be STRONGLY offensive? You succeeded. And then, of course, you get to express mock surprise that you have given offense.
Try "explaining" to Bananabrain why you think Judaism is mistaken like this, "I'll give an example: what if a Jew murders a child and bakes his blood into Passover matzohs-- mind you, I'm not saying Jews actually do that, I'm just saying-- wouldn't it be terrible? Not a great example I know, but it's all I can think of", and see what reaction you get.

...to illustrate the point

And what, pray tell, WAS your "point"? If you were going to make any moral analysis, you might say: examine the motives of the pedophile; he wishes to control another who is weaker than himself, and he has no concern at all about the welfare of the child; that is what makes it "wrong"; therefore, since consensual love between adults has no such elements, it is not "wrong". But evidently that is not how you really think.

Francis:

BobX, by the looks of things, ur as bad as the christian bigots...

I have not done ANYTHING to harm them, they have done plenty to harm me. Do you say Elie Wiesel is as bad as Adolf Hitler, because he said harsh things about the Germans, that might hurt their feelings?

u have a dislike of christians, who u assume to be ur enemy, en masse

I don't "assume" anything. That is just how it is around here. You live across the pond in a place where Christians mostly no longer think and act like medievals. I live in a place where the Christians are a swarm of stinging flies.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I don't think it is the "body" one lusts after, that God hates, but rather the "lust" after the forbidden that He hates. To be attracted to the opposite sex is natural. To be attracted to the same sex is not natural (it makes no sense at all).

To love those of both sexes, in an other than sexual way, is quite frankly, what we're supposed to do.

It's that physical sex thing that hangs everybody up. But even that can be overcome.

What really gets people is that alternative physical sex thing, forced upon society, and "oh, by the way...your children will be taught it too, whether you like it or not...and you will acknowledge us and you will accept us and you will put up with us and you will pay for us, and you will like it, because we deserve it and God has nothing to do with society because God does not exist, and that is what we are going to instill in your children, because we know better than you, and there is nothing you can do about it because we are the new echelons, and you are quaint and outdated and ready for extinction..."

While I would agree that God originally made us to be heterosexual, could something have happened after Adam ate the fruit from the forbidden tree?

Aging, death, sickness and disease were all a result of the eating of the forbidden fruit. That wasn't a part of what God created. God didn't mean for us to get sick, grow old and die.

Now take transexuals. They are heterosexual personalities born in the wrong body. ie. a masculine personality born in a woman's body, feminine personality born in a man's body.

If you can have a transexual, a misplaced mind/body, could we not also have a mind that seeks after the wrong sex?

A homosexual, as distinct from a transexual, is where you seek a personality of the same sex. ie. masculine personality seeking a masculine personality, feminine personality seeking a feminine personality.

Sure, this wasn't natural in God's original creation. But what if it's natural in the poisoned creation?

The question I'd like to ask is, how can we condemn such people? We can't condemn transexuals because they were born in the wrong body. So why then, should we condemn homosexuals for being born with the wrong mind?

You can't force a transexual man to love a woman, because it's really a heterosexual woman born in a man's body. Could homosexuality be just a slightly different kind of oddity?

Some people are born blind, some born with some other kind of disability or disorder. Could we not say that homosexuality is a disorder that begins at birth and give such people special status?

[BlaznFattyz]

people born blind or deaf have no choice.
those that choose to go against the natural order and way of things that God has made is sin whether one is ignorant of it or not.
God is holy and righteous and by that standard he judges.
If we say we believe in God on the outside yet continue in sin, enjoy it, and do not repent on the inside, chances are we condemn ourselves willingly against God and will have a fierce judgement and perhaps God will cast you out of his sight for eternity.
To try and justify a relationship other than a man and a woman with love is not yours to justify. God made love, and God has the ability to turn that which is bad to good. You do not create love, you interact in it and adopt it; that which was already created and given as a gift by god. and by God's standards that love is to be between a man and a woman.

[bob x]

I am not in any way going against my nature or the way I was made. Stop asking me to do so.

[Francis king]

you might not do anything to harm them, as such, BobX, but u do when u make the same generalisations against "them" as they do about "you"... it all feeds the same mistrust and dislike of each other that u all say ur so opposed to...
...
I agree, Quahom... a true christian can't be a bigot...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

About Christians being bigots?

I think that straight people fear and distrust gay people. I'm not entirely sure why that is. I don't really understand why gay people would want to be Christians, either, though. It's kind of like black people wanting to join the KKK. Either gay people are going to hell, or God is going to save them based on some other criteria. Which? Or, are there degrees of hell and heaven? If you're gay and you lie about it do you go to double hell? If you're queer but you're sorry do you go to probational heaven?

Chris

As was wisely pointed out Chris...no one can know the heart of a man but God. Therefore humans have no clue as to the fate of the soul of each man when the time comes to face God personally, as that is reserved for the man and God alone. As Christ also pointed out, there is no one sin that supersedes another save that of Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.

So, homosexual behavior (which boils down literally to fornication) is no worse than sex between heterosexuals not married (fornication), nor sex with a married spouse not one's own (adultery),nor worse than lying to a neighbor, or stealing, or dishonoring mother and father, or being an un fair judge.

Where the disdain of homosexuality comes from, I believe is due to God (according to the bible), stating it as being an abomination. So if God said it, then it must be ok for people to keep on with like mind. But the reality is that God was stating a fact, not an emotion. It is not a natural way of engaging in an activity that was among other things, designed for pro-creation.

People tend to look at the emotional side of things, rather than consider what the Bible was/is stating about a matter, in observation.

On the other hand, for example God is explicit on His feelings on divorce...He HATES it.

Now on certain matters, God has made it clear indirectly that to cause injury to a child, will cause the wrath of God to come down on the injurer with extreme predjudice, and Jesus re-emphasized that warning to us...and I think most everyone here would agree on this.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

While I would agree that God originally made us to be heterosexual, could something have happened after Adam ate the fruit from the forbidden tree?

Aging, death, sickness and disease were all a result of the eating of the forbidden fruit. That wasn't a part of what God created. God didn't mean for us to get sick, grow old and die.

Now take transexuals. They are heterosexual personalities born in the wrong body. ie. a masculine personality born in a woman's body, feminine personality born in a man's body.

If you can have a transexual, a misplaced mind/body, could we not also have a mind that seeks after the wrong sex?

A homosexual, as distinct from a transexual, is where you seek a personality of the same sex. ie. masculine personality seeking a masculine personality, feminine personality seeking a feminine personality.

Sure, this wasn't natural in God's original creation. But what if it's natural in the poisoned creation?

The question I'd like to ask is, how can we condemn such people? We can't condemn transexuals because they were born in the wrong body. So why then, should we condemn homosexuals for being born with the wrong mind?

You can't force a transexual man to love a woman, because it's really a heterosexual woman born in a man's body. Could homosexuality be just a slightly different kind of oddity?

Some people are born blind, some born with some other kind of disability or disorder. Could we not say that homosexuality is a disorder that begins at birth and give such people special status?

yeah, something did happen after the expulsion from the garden...a corrupted earth and man.

You are going into areas of the psychi that I am no expert nor even a novice student on. But I can say this. When I meet people who are gender uncertain (best way I can think to put it), I have always sensed an element of...sadness, that I don't normally sense in most other people.

Here there is a two pronged approach that must be considered.

1. We "normal people" must learn to be compassionate towards others, because we most often have even bigger faults to contend with then the others do.

2. The others must not allow a few to color the entirety of themselves (as a collective whole), by the hateful rantings and determiniation of said few, to change society to suit their own agenda.

History shows over and over again, if steps are not taken by both peoples to combat their own fears, or become complacent in allowing a few to dictate to the rest how things will be, then bad things happen, that hurt the whole of humanity.

I grow irritated and tired equally of religious right extremists and advocate left extremists, ranting, screaming and demanding that society do as they say, or else.

I say, "Or else what?..."

my two "sense's"

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

But Josh, where is it implied that the penitence of recidivist sinners mitigates God's just anger? Liars don't admit they lie, but if caught they might hedge. Out Homosexuals revel in their sin. But in the final analysis at the Judgment, which is worse: continuing to sin and expressing remorse only when caught, or sinning with abandon and accepting the guilt?

Maybe we should give equal time. Perhaps, just to catch up, we should talk about liars for a bazillion turns, then all the other deadly sins, and then come back to fags. I mean, the only reason we focus on them is their audacious honesty.

Chris

A Liar, is a wrong behavior that no one on earth will tolerate. That is a simple one. Lie long enough and one is out of a job, loses family, ends up on the street or in jail. Lying is one of those absolute no nos because it immediately violates an inherent trust in society. Trust, once lost, does not easily return.

Out homosexuals...dollar to a doghnut says they aren't "reveling" in their "sin", but rather, frustrated, confused, mistrustful, and at wit's end, finally declare, "fine, this is what I am, if you don't like it, tough". In short, their heart has been hardened that much more, to protect the wounds received through out their lives. And with hardened heart comes a certain boldness, which shocks the rest of society. We are tendent to subtly outcast those not like "us". That does not get past those being outcast. The retalitory response is "you will not ignore me, because there are enough of me to demand your attention". This is the fight that is going on right now.

There is a danger for both sides here. One, the majority will become hardened of heart and that would be bad for the minority and the majority (a society divided will fall). Two, the minority will lose sense of the "line in the sand", and try to force a crossing, and that would be very bad for the minority. History shows that...

What has to be done, is level heads on both sides of the issue must dampen down the extremists on both sides, and must work together to keep an equilibrium. This is also true with all walks and issues in life (except abortion, or child abuse in my opinion, but then I am looking at the part where Jesus states any who cause even one of these little ones to stumble...)

Anyway,

Two more of my "sense's"

Q

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The emotion is never the sin, the thought behind it and the intent to act on it, is the sin. Lust is a different word for desire, but they describe the same emotion. We can't help how we may feel, but we can determine whether or not to act on that feeling. There is absolutely nothing ridiculous about that.

They are not interchangeable words. Lust is an overpowering desire, something you will generally strive for at ANY cost, while people generally aren't going to go overbroad for a simple desire.

Lust is a wrong desire.

Like, someone might kill over a lust for another person, another's wealth, etc, while if you simply desired an orange or an apple for lunch, something like that isn't going to consume you and distance you from God.

Over time we can help what we feel with God's help, it's not like "well I'm always going to feel that way and that's that, not going to try to change what I feel".

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

They are not interchangeable words. Lust is an overpowering desire, something you will generally strive for at ANY cost, while people generally aren't going to go overbroad for a simple desire.

Lust is a wrong desire.

Like, someone might kill over a lust for another person, another's wealth, etc, while if you simply desired an orange or an apple for lunch, something like that isn't going to consume you and distance you from God.

Over time we can help what we feel with God's help, it's not like "well I'm always going to feel that way and that's that, not going to try to change what I feel".

What you just described is "obsession". That is totally wrong and in that light I agree. I always desire after my mate, but there are times when I lust after her. Some might call it being extremely "Randy" or "Horny", but the point is the same. It is a sexual desire that is very strong. It is very animal in nature, and usually reciprocated because for what ever reasons the horomones of both mates are especially strong. That in no way is a sinful way to act, nor sinful in thought.

This might be becoming an argument in semantics, and as such I have no wish to delve that deep into the weeds, "moy druig"...

v/r

Q

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by bob x

Russia:


Keeping them unhappy is "best"? Explain to me what is GOOD about that. I hope you would agree that, all others being equal, joy is a better thing than misery? I don't know, maybe you don't.

I'm not saying " keep people unhappy because that's the right thing to do. " It's just that sometimes what might keep someone happy for the moment isn't best for them in the long run or the grand scheme of things. That's all I meant by that.

Where I live, yes. I know that Muslims are even worse, where they are in power, but they are not very politically active around here. All of the actions that have been taken to do me hurt have been by Christians, every one, without exception, that's just the facts.
I said I had not had any problems specifically with the Orthodox, but that again is because they are not very numerous or active around here; where they are in power, they are as brutal as Muslims:
Riot troops break up a gay rights rally in Moscow - International Herald Tribune

While you may have been hurt by Christians, that doesn't mean that it's something we're supposed to do in Christianity. In most churches I have been in; Orthodox, Catholic, Methodist, etc, I've never heard anything advocating " We should hurt gay people ", so I just don't understand where it is coming from (maybe there are many more "churches" besides that crazy baptist Westboro one that hates people with AIDS [among other things] that promote this, but I've never been to one) or how anyone would back that up with the Gospels.

Greece is also Orthodox, but you don't see them doing stuff like that. You cannot blame the Orthodox Church for everything that happens in Russian Federation. I have a feeling it has more to do with all the Neo-Nazism going around in Russia than anything else (and that's certainly not something the Orthodox Church supports).

So, you didn't have any comparison or analogy to make, you were just being offensive for the sake of being offensive? It is typical of Christians to find some excuse for working pedophilia into the conversation, and say that they just cannot think of any other analogy to make: "out of what your heart is filled with, your mouth speaks". Pedophilia accusations are the most common "justification" given for murdering us: the "good Christian" who held me at gunpoint gave that as his motive, for example, and a friend of mine did lose his life over such a slander.

My comparison was in the reasoning that just because we understand a sin and why someone does it, doesn't mean we can condemn the act any less. That was my whole comparison. And again, the only reason I used it because it was a strong and clear cut example because everyone abhores Pedophilia, even yourself, correct? It could have been compared with anything else and seeing as what a big mess it caused, maybe should have been. But what's done is done.

But, again, I wasn't comparing the sins to each other (as I explained before), but the reasoning toward sins in general.

And no, I'm not nor would I EVER use it as a justification to murder anyone. There is no justification for murder. And I'm NOT saying Pedophilia=Homosexuality or Pedophiles=Homosexuals which you seem to think that I'm getting at or that somehow my heart is filled with hatred toward you or homosexuals in general. That couldn't be farther from the truth. There would be absolutely no viable reason to explain any of this to you if that is what I was really thinking.



But, stop making yourself a martyr with these " all you guys want to do is harm to me " sayings, like you are the only one that has ever been harmed for homosexuality or religion or ANYTHING, like you are the only one that knows someone who has been killed over slander of ANYTHING, or abused for what you think is right. I bet you that several Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Baha'is, etc., in this very forum have put up with **** like that or worse, and they aren't consistently going on and on about it.

And what, pray tell, WAS your "point"? If you were going to make any moral analysis, you might say: examine the motives of the pedophile; he wishes to control another who is weaker than himself, and he has no concern at all about the welfare of the child; that is what makes it "wrong"; therefore, since consensual love between adults has no such elements, it is not "wrong". But evidently that is not how you really think.

That is only what makes it wrong? Not also, that the child is emotionally (and possibly physically) scarred for the rest of its life, beyond the motives of the offender? Is that not also a part of the moral analysis?

Consensual sex between adults can have such elements, and it can be " wrong ", as in fornication and homosexual sex, and is appears more than once in the Bible. Whether you want to accept it or not, is up to you.

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

What you just described is "obsession". That is totally wrong and in that light I agree. I always desire after my mate, but there are times when I lust after her. Some might call it being extremely "Randy" or "Horny", but the point is the same. It is a sexual desire that is very strong. It is very animal in nature, and usually reciprocated because for what ever reasons the horomones of both mates are especially strong. That in no way is a sinful way to act, nor sinful in thought.

This might be becoming an argument in semantics, and as such I have no wish to delve that deep into the weeds, "moy druig"...

v/r

Q

Maybe, I just don't see lust as only sexual desire, but an overencompassing desire for anything wrong. Yes, exactly like an obsession, only an obsession over a wrong thing.

But yeah. No need to get crazy over it.

Bez problyem, drug.