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Old 05-31-2012, 05:06 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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Originally Posted by Vedic Rationalist View Post
Why not 'ALL IS TWO'
Why one.
Is there a bias towards one here?

a] the manifest cosmos is an expression of duality in action.
Black/white, large/tiny, male/female, stars/space, outside/inside etc etc.

b] taken together the dual polarities from a wholistic Complete whole.

Period.

The Issue is not inre the above maxims ---the debates are inre the nature of the soul.

The nature of the soul is not an Proper Topic for advaita logistics and semantics.

Advaita seeks to show that everything is UNIFIDE.

But, by extention, the advaitists seek to (mistakenly) show that the Nature of the soul is somekind of omni-present overlord.

The "Nature of the soul" is a topic that is beyond the perview of advaita logistics and semantics.

There is a bias against the "Nature of the soul" as the POV of an eternal individual "Living Entity" aka a Soul, aka, jiva-atma (individual-soul being).

This is the source & Goal of the Hindu Advaita logistics and semantics.

Hindu Advaita logistics and semantics are true and correct . . . except in the topic of the "Nature of the soul" ---thus, the Bias.

I wish a stuanch advaitist would debate me ---without their showing fear that I will show them their self; and the Supreme-Self Godhead too, into the bargain.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:31 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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Originally Posted by bhaktajan View Post
I wish a stuanch advaitist would debate me ---without their showing fear that I will show them their self; and the Supreme-Self Godhead too, into the bargain.
Might be able to arrange that, if we can get him passed the moderation queue here. Lemme know if you are serious about it, and I will find out if the advaitist I know is willing.
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Old 06-12-2012, 04:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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Originally Posted by bhaktajan
I wish a stuanch advaitist would debate me



I may need their coaxing for me to avoid veering into Vrindavana Das territory.

Brijabasi never die, they just fade away,
Bhaktajan
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:33 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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Originally Posted by bhaktajan View Post
[/I]


I may need their coaxing for me to avoid veering into Vrindavana Das territory.

Brijabasi never die, they just fade away,
Bhaktajan
I know of a couple of advaitists I can invite over to debate you. One is rather settled in his beliefs, and is a polite debater. The other is more muddied in his beliefs, and loves to argue for the sake of arguing.

Lemme know if you want me to invite one or both over.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:26 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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I know of a couple of advaitists I can invite over to debate you. One is rather settled in his beliefs, and is a polite debater. The other is more muddied in his beliefs, and loves to argue for the sake of arguing.

Lemme know if you want me to invite one or both over.
Yes. Also, an floating moderator would be great too [ie: yourself etal] in order to occassionally be reminded to: STAY ON TASK, thus avoiding tangential digressions.

Or someone can occassionally "recap" what topics had been touch upon and which topics have not yet been fleshed out thoroughly.

My pledge is to be academic for academics' sake.
I do not seek to be a victor in One-Up-manship.

I see the discussion as a Yogic exercise to clarify my own apprehension of the subject ---as a service to others.

I must say beforehand that ---aside from the need to cite the texts chapter & verse ---common sensibilities & logic must be explored to find the wholistic common ground.

BTW, What would the Title or main Topic or starting Point for such a discussion?

Maybe: as would alway assert:

Upon realisation of Unified Brahman via the Vedic Yoga Texts . . . there is the higher levels that a Yogi MAY pursue.

Or {this question of mine, does IMO, seem to be a set-up question meant to stump the reader . . . maybe that's just my bloated ego}
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Old 06-13-2012, 06:41 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

I shall send an invitation to the calmer one post haste.
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Old 06-13-2012, 12:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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I personally do not like to label myself.....although my spiritualality does involve an ultimate Supreme Reality that the definition of Brahman (or Dao) describes well....so in some ways I can be considered a Hindu atheist.....although like I said I reject labels.
Labels have their own importance. Can you reach my house if I do not give you the address?

Brahman can be taken as the Supreme Spirit or it could be taken just as 'what exists'. Who knows Brahman? In that case one is an atheist and could as well be a hindu too (which I am, a hindu atheist). My spirituality does not require God/Gods/Goddesses/soul/creation/birth/death/judgment/reward or punishment.
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Old 06-13-2012, 12:55 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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After all the label "Hinduism" is a very big misnomer and overgeneralizing label by westerners for what is widely different religions within this umbrella..
And why is hinduism a misnomer? Hinduism can embrace various 'matas' (opinions) and panthas' (roads). It is not like christianity and islam that if you do not accept what the book says, you cannot escape eternal hell. It is not a misnomer but the western people need to understand that worshiping this God or that Goddess or none is negotiable. What is not negotiable is 'dharma' (one's duties and righteous action). Gods and Goddesses are not the base of hinduism, 'dharma' is.
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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Originally Posted by nativeastral View Post
.. probably those 'pure' athiests still respect and give offerings-arti- to their local deities as well as the 'mainstream' ones. the belief that they can help in worldly matters is endemic ..
No, I do not give offerings-arti to local or mainstream Gods and Goddesses and I do not ever seek any divine help. I am a strong atheist. I realize they are stories in which my society has woven its morality and ethics. That does not mean that I show disrespect to them or their stories. These are beacons for hindu morality and ethics. Whether fair or unfair, these stories still teach us something.
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Old 06-13-2012, 01:55 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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Originally Posted by param View Post
The logic of atheists is based on perception (Pratyaksha Pramana), .. The divine miracles are experienced by the devotees and the experience cannot be contradicted. .. The theory of Vedas and Bhagavath Gita never contradicts the perception .. The Bliss is derived by the devotee from the divine knowledge of the human form of the Lord. .. Veda says ‘Yat Saakshat Aparokshaat’, ‘Pratyagatmana Maikshat’.
My logic is not based on perception. Perception is a mirage. BhagawadGeeta clearly contradicts perception. It does not even accept the killed and the killer. Nothing that we perceive is true. I accept 'Anumana' (like the Vaisesikas). What I would not believe is Shabda. That needs to be verified. Why are miracles perceived only by devotees? Why do I not perceive them? I would accept them if there was independent evidence. Bliss/Satisfaction is derived from getting answers to one's questions. If all questions are answered, then it is 'supreme bliss', 'nirvana' (no forest, clear view), moksha, and 'gnana' (understanding). You have used ‘Yat Saakshat Aparokshaat’ and ‘Pratyagatmana Maikshat’ many a times on internet. Would you kindly give me the book number (mandala) and hymn (richa) so that I could check the meaning in context myself.
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:12 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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Originally Posted by Lunitik View Post
Atheism and theism are two sides of the same coin, Brahman is not a being it is an absense, a non-existence, a void. Brahman cannot be directly conceived as something personal like the other God's of Hinduism are posited. Advaita practitioners uphold the personal character of Ishwara, but even here it is a maya - why have they stalled here? The point is escaping maya, not finding a more profound maya.
We do not know what Brahman is. You say it is an absense, non-existence. It could be. Or it could be presence and existence. We do not have the answer yet. But this is something which needs to be looked into. Perhaps existence and non existence are related. Perhaps 'what exists' arises out of 'void'. Science is making inquiries. Even the 'Nasadiya Sukta' (you can check it at 'sacred-texts.com', Book 10, Hymn 129, Verse 4 - I cannot post the link yet. Perhaps Seattlegal would do it for me) in RigVeda hinted at that saying 'sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.'

I follow advaita but stop at 'Absolute truth' (Parmarthika). I do not accept 'Pragmatic' (Vyavaharika) as truth. That does away with 'Ishvara'. I have not stalled anywhere. I have not rejected mythology. I have accepted it for what it is, guidance for the society. I have no quarrel with theism. It may not be a necessity for me, but it is a necessity for many people.
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This is the problem with Advaita though, it is as far as mind can take you, but the goal is not of the mind - it transcends mind.
There is nothing beyond mind. What goal are you referring to and what makes you say that it transcends mind? At one time 'relativity' and 'quantum mechanics' also were beyond mind. It takes data and time to understand things.
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Old 06-13-2012, 02:39 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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Originally Posted by bhaktajan View Post
The Conclusion of the Vedas (aka, Vedanta) is attainable only through a Guru who is a bonafide representative of the Science of Self-realization.
Kindly give reference to the book and hymn where Vedas say this.
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Q: "How does one know who their real father is?"
A: "Ask your mother"
Sometimes even the mother does not know. When Satyakama asked this question, his mother said, 'Son, at the time you were conceived, I sported with many men. I do not know who your father is.'
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Originally Posted by bhaktajan View Post
Atheism in "Hindu Schools of Logic" do not deny the topic God - they just talk past the topic. Since the soul is made of Brahman-Stuff, ..
I deny all, God/Gods/Goddesses and Soul, because I do not find any evidence.
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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Originally Posted by bhaktajan View Post
Arjuna inquired: Which are considered to be more perfect, those who are always properly engaged in Your devotional service or those who worship the impersonal Brahman, the unmanifested?
Krishna instructed Arjuna according to Arjuna's capabilities. But he also said:

"Gata-sangasya muktasya, jnānāvasthita-chetasah;
yajnāyācharatah karma, samagram pravilīyate." (BhagawadGeeta 4.23)

(The work of a man who is unattached to the modes of material nature and who is fully situated in transcendental knowledge merges entirely into transcendence.)

He (or she, if the person is a woman) is Brahman, there is no difference.
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:44 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

Whey Kool, thank you Aupmanyav and SG.... I have new data and arguments to ponder!
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:56 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Atheism in Hinduism

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Originally Posted by Lunitik View Post
This is exactly what I say is wrong with Advaita, always these conclusions are restricted to mind or body, yet we are not these so this is not useful. It can facilitate trust in later meditation, but all too often it is never taken to meditation and so they continue disputing.
Are we more than body (that includes mind as well)? Sure, meditate all you want. But what will you meditate on? Meditation is seeking answers to a question.
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I can logically explain anything I want, ..
No, you can't. If you can, prove logically the existence of God/Gods/Goddesses (in a separate topic).
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.. and indeed most mystic branches of faith..
I do not think there is anything mystic with Advaita. Whatever the universe contains is made up of 'physical energy' (heat, light, electricity, gravity), so we say "Sarve Khalu Idam Brahma" (all things here are Brahman). I do not know of anything that is made up of anything other than 'physical energy'.
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