Baha'i

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Mick

Allah''u'Abha Vajradhara


Really, I am not aware of this. These are pretty strong words. In the west we would answer with 'Chapter and Verse', please. Where would I be able to find this refutation documented?

indeed, it is so. i would be happy to provide sutra references, and i shall in this instance, however.... i would typically perfer to be less pendantic than this.

1. Dhammapada ch 12 - 14

2. Brahmajâla sutta (talks about God)

3. Bhûridatta Jataka

4. Lankavatara Sutra (in this sutra, the Buddha refutes the notions of a "soul" or "atman" as it is known in sanskrit)

5. Bodhicittavivarana (herein the "self" is refuted as well as a creator deity)

6. Kevaddha Sutta

7. Maha-Govinda Suttanta



a link that may prove to be of some value:

http://www.buddhanet.net/10-gqga.htm

Good Answers to Good Qeustions.

other links that may prove to be of interest:

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/b...ude_to_god.htm


now.. i should point out that some of the sutra references may not make a whole lot of sense when you read them without a proper understanding of Buddhist basics... 4 Noble Truths, Noble 8 Fold path, et al.

[arthra]

I think Mick has been doing an excellent job in his posts here and I just discovered this topic or thread, but I had the impression that Vajra believess there are "schools" among Baha'is or various schools of thought perhaps:

Vajra wrote:

"... which of the Baha'i schools do you follow?"

I don't know what this refers to and would be ask if Vajra could elaborate perhaps?

Baha'is are remarkably united in our views and there are no divisive camps among us.

One of our principles is being non-partisan as well as avoiding contention, so we lok for areas we have in common first and gather information on an area ratehr than divide into polarized camps.

We have no electioneering in the Baha'i Faith when we elect our administrative bodies.

One final note:

I would think also it would be natural or a considerration for those who set up Comparative Religion.com to consider Baha'i Faith as an independent religion among our older "sibling" religions as we have our own revealed scriptures and Holy Days, etc.

- Art

[Vajradhara]

Namaste arthra,

thank you for the post.

by "schools" i mean sects

specifically i mean:

The Bahá'í World Faith is followed by the vast majority of believers. In the United States, it is headed by the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States. Authority once exercised by Shoghi Effendi is now transferred to the Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel.

Bahá'ís Under the Provisions of the Covenant who recognized Mason Remey as theguardian who succeeded Shoghi Effendi. They have organized a series of International Baha'i Councils (IBC).They claim a membership approaching 144,000. Their Baha'i Center is located in Missoula, MT.

Faith of God, (a.k.a. the House of Mankind and the Universal Palace of Order), who followed Jamshid Ma'ani. They "are no longer active (listed as 'defunct' in Gordon Melton's Encyclopedia of Religions)."

The Orthodox Bahá'í Faith," (a.k.a. Mother Bahá'í Council), who follow Joel Marangella.

The Orthodox Baha'i Faith Under the Regency, who follow Rex King.

The Charles Mason Remey Society, who follow Donald Harvey and Francis Spataro.

A dissident group organized around The Friends Newsletter.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/bahai.htm

[arthra]

[QUOTE=Vajradhara]Namaste arthra,

thank you for the post.

by "schools" i mean sects

Yes Vajra, these are not "schools of thought" but rather some splinter groups that broke off from the vast majority of Baha'is.

Historically there have been many attempts to divide the Baha'is from the very beginning of our Faith, but none have ever succeeded in accomplishing this.

Only the internet seems to grant some of these groups a semblance of "reality".

The Baha'i Faith is centered in Haifa, Israel and is administered by the Universal House of Justice there. Both Mick and I are Baha'is recognizing the Universal House of Justice.

None of these groups you mentioned have succeeded in dividing the Baha'is or forming anything like say the denominations in Christianity or the many sects in Buddhism or Islam.

I'm supplying you with a site where you can explore the history of some of these groups at your leisure:

http://bahai-library.org/encyclopedia/covenant.html

You'll need to scroll down to the bottom of the article for the pertinent sections.

Please feel free to ask anything else along these lines and I'd be very pleased to respond!

- Art

[arthra]

Vajra wrote:

if you will, how the Buddhist would characterize Baha'u'llah. we would say that this individual was a Bodhisattva. undoubtedly, you would not agree with this characterization, however from our point of view, this would be a very good thing. in point of fact, this is exactly the view we have with regards to Jesus and Mohammad, Moses and so forth.

it would appear that you've put the Buddha into a different station than what he claimed for himself. If the Buddha is a manifestation of God, that completely, utterly and entirely destroys his teachings. it is beyond the scope of this disucssion to get into this here, however, rest assured that this is the case. there is no escape and no liberation and the wheel of samsara will continue to roll. this is not a position that i can support.

My reply:

Since you brought up this area or rather it was being discussed earlier with Mick, I thought Vajra I would submit a few perspectives that may be helpful in explaining the Baha'i views.

But first let me say that Baha'is have very friendly and cordial relations with Buddhists in Asia. In South Vietnam before the collapse of the government there, many Buddhists became Baha'is at least there were some ten thousand or so during that regime...many of these Vietnamese Baha'is came to the United States and continued in the Baha'i community while a good many remained in Communist Vietnam. Since Baha'is obey their government the Baha'is in Vietnam are no longer able to meet or elect their own Baha'i governing bodies.

In Mongolia also a number of Buddhists have become Baha'is and formed a (Baha'i) National Spiritual Assembly. I don't have exact figures.

I hope you do not regard it though as some kind of "slight" or attack on your religion that Baha'is recognize Gautama Buddha as "Manifestation of God" and I don't think Baha'is would be offended at all if Buddhists regarded Baha'u'llah as a "Bodhisattwa" as we accept that Baha'u'llah was the promised Maitreyya-Amitabha Buddha.

I'm sure you're aware that many Vaishnava Hindus also regard the Buddha as an Avatara.

We could explain further what a "Manifestation of God" is in more detail, but for this discussion let me say that from my own research on Buddhism and I studied Theravadin schools and took refuge years ago in the Three Jewels, that the Buddha's teaching regarding the soul and God is closer to an agnostic position than it is an atheist position.

In the Baha'i Faith, God is defined as a an "Unknowable Essence" and the soul of man is regarded as a mystery that cannot be well defined in this existence.

So from my perspective there was not a great difference between the Buddha's teaching in this respect and the Baha'i Writings when I became a Baha'i.

There's also a good article on the subject in our on-line Baha'i Encyclopaedia at

http://bahai-library.org/encyclopedia/buddhism.html

- Art

[Vajradhara]

namaste arthra,

thank you for the post... i'll snip my stuff that you replied to out, so as not to exceed the post limits

My reply:

But first let me say that Baha'is have very friendly and cordial relations with Buddhists in Asia. In South Vietnam before the collapse of the government there, many Buddhists became Baha'is at least there were some ten thousand or so during that regime...many of these Vietnamese Baha'is came to the United States and continued in the Baha'i community while a good many remained in Communist Vietnam. Since Baha'is obey their government the Baha'is in Vietnam are no longer able to meet or elect their own Baha'i governing bodies.

interestingly enough, the govt of Vietnam has an "official Buddhist Church" which actually isn't very Buddhist at all... eh.. that's what happens when politics gets into religion.

I hope you do not regard it though as some kind of "slight" or attack on your religion that Baha'is recognize Gautama Buddha as "Manifestation of God" and I don't think Baha'is would be offended at all if Buddhists regarded Baha'u'llah as a "Bodhisattwa" as we accept that Baha'u'llah was the promised Maitreyya-Amitabha Buddha.

Matireya and Amitabha are different Buddhas altogether! Amitabha has already come and Maitreya is currently a Bodhisattva and will be the next Buddha... however, that has not come yet. we can know that it hasn't come yet because Maitreya will reappear in the age after the Dharma has ended... IOW, if we know about Maitreya, the Dharma hasn't ended... ergo, no Maitreya yet.

moreover, the Muslims claim the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) was Maitreya... i think that i shall have to conclude that as far as Buddhist prophesies are concerned, the Buddhist position on this has to take precedence.

furthermore... last time i checked.. the human life span had not shrunk to 10 years (one of the preconditions for Maitreya) when Maitreya does appear as the Buddha, a few other things will be ongoing... firstly, there will be a World Ruling King (Chakrasamvara) in India...and the lifespan of a human will be 80,000 years. last time i checked on this... there isn't a World Ruling King in India... (we could, i suppose, make an argument for Asoka... though "world" at that time, wasn't the entire thing) and nobody is living past 120 or so....

what i really don't understand is why these two traditions (Islam and Baha'i) are selective in their choosing of Buddhist texts from which to draw their conclusions.... espeically with regards to prophecy. it's really quite baffleing to me.

well... i know that it's not an intentional attack... however... it's most certainly a slight. heck... were i a fundamentalist type of person, this would be down right insulting.... but i'm not... and, perhaps more importantly, i understand that this is your understanding of the situation, such that it is.

do you see how claiming that Buddha is a manifestation of God completely, totally and utterly undermines his teachings? if he's a manifestation of God, then he is not like us.. ergo... we cannot be like him. this is plainly not the case... as i'm sure you are aware as you indicate that you went for refuge to the Triple Jewel.

I'm sure you're aware that many Vaishnava Hindus also regard the Buddha as an Avatara.

indeed... he's regarded as the 9th incarnation of Vishnu. This is a move by the Bramins to undermine the teachings of the Buddha... in essence, this is a polemical position to take on the issue.... and moreover, is completely refuted by the Buddha himseslf.

We could explain further what a "Manifestation of God" is in more detail, but for this discussion let me say that from my own research on Buddhism and I studied Theravadin schools and took refuge years ago in the Three Jewels, that the Buddha's teaching regarding the soul and God is closer to an agnostic position than it is an atheist position.

the official position of Buddhism vis a vie the soul is called "anatman" which means, literally "no-self" which is directly opposed to the "atman" doctrine that is espoused in the Hindu tradition.

you are correct... Buddhism is not an atheist tradition... it is clearly depicted in the Sutras that Buddha taught both gods and men. what is, however, refuted quite thoroughly, is the concept of a Creator Deity. deities such as Brahma and Vishnu and Ishvara et al. are still subject to karma, they are not eternal and will be reborn when their karmic is expended in thier current existence.

In the Baha'i Faith, God is defined as a an "Unknowable Essence" and the soul of man is regarded as a mystery that cannot be well defined in this existence.

So from my perspective there was not a great difference between the Buddha's teaching in this respect and the Baha'i Writings when I became a Baha'i.

There's also a good article on the subject in our on-line Baha'i Encyclopaedia at

http://bahai-library.org/encyclopedia/buddhism.html

- Art

thank you for the link, i shall endeavor to read for myself the information therein.

as a general aside... i do hope that i don't appear to be angry or upset, i'm not really i am a bit of a stickler when it comes to my tradition, mostly since it is so often misrepresented and misconstrued that i have a hard time recognizing what it is that is being discussed.

often, it seems, these exchanges on the internet become mired in details that are only important to the adherents... ... there is something. it seems, that makes us want to ensure that others have an accurate understanding of what we believe.

[Mick]

Allah'u'Abha Vajradhara and Art,

I haven't dissappeared, but even guys like me have to work once in awhile. Sassafras and I will be working through Sunday this weekend and then I will be back on line for more than a passing moment.

Art,

Please jump in. I know you have knowledge and experience in the Eastern Traditions. Was hoping you would find this thread.

warmly,

Mick

[arthra]

Thanks Vajra for your notes and I'll review them carefully...before responding to all of them though, I'll also give you some time to read the article I posted for reference. Let me know when you have done so as I want you to be aware of our Baha'i perspective on the subject, and then I'll respond more fully.



I'm unsure about whose reference it was you referred to about the Vietnamese Buddhist Church ...was it your reference?

I agree it's best not to get mired into details and I do appreciate very your sensitivity on the points you raised!

The important thing is that no Baha'i is accepting the Buddha as a polemical tactic or tool to discredit Buddhism.



Here are some more references that I've found related to my last post:

Vietnamese Bahaism. A Survey of the Religions of Vietnam (Navy Personal Response Handout Series, C-1), Saigon: Comnavsuppac [US navy], n.d. [between 1964 and 1974]. Collins 7.2655 At the time of publication, the Baha'is had experienced considerable success in their missionary work in Vietnam, with many conversions.

The Annual Report to Congress of International Religious Freedom (IRF) for the year 2000 has this comment about Baha'is in Vietnam:

"In recent years, the conditions faced by Baha'is have improved in some localities where Baha'is have been able to practice their faith quietly with local permission. However, a Baha'i community in Danang was unable to obtain approval of its recent application for registration of official religious activities."

(And)

"During the war in Vietnam the Baha'i Faith in Southeast Asia particularly attracted ethnic Chinese and Hmong hill people; they have been especially numerous among the groups fleeing Vietnam. Baha'i teaching efforts in refugee camps attracted thousands of Cambodians and Laotians to the Baha'i Faith as well, and many of them came to the United States. As a result the American Baha'i community has several thousand Baha'is of Southeast Asian background";

Source:

http://bahai-library.org/articles/am...community.html

Here is also a reference I've found regarding Maitreyya and Amitabha (Avaloheteshvara) Buddha:

"He (Maitreyya) often forms a triad with Sakyamuni and Avalokitesvara; in fact, in Sri Lanka, sculptures thought to depict Avalokitesvara have been reinterpreted as showing Maitreya.

In Korea and Japan, where his cult enjoyed great favour from the sixth century, he is often confused (as in China) with Amitabha and Sakyamuni."

Source:

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/.../maitreya2.htm

So I think there is evidence depending on the tradition of Buddhism that there is a view connecting Maitreyya with Amitabha.


- Art

[Vajradhara]

Namaste arthra,

thank you for the response.

do you perfer to be called art?

Originally Posted by arthra

I'm unsure about whose reference it was you referred to about the Vietnamese Buddhist Church ...was it your reference?

oh.. that bit was mine.. you had mentioned Vietnam and this topic was tangentially related.

The important thing is that no Baha'i is accepting the Buddha as a polemical tactic or tool to discredit Buddhism.

this is my impression thus far. though in truth, i have only had an opportunity to discuss this with the three of you here i shall accept it, a priori.

Here is also a reference I've found regarding Maitreyya and Amitabha (Avaloheteshvara) Buddha:

"He (Maitreyya) often forms a triad with Sakyamuni and Avalokitesvara; in fact, in Sri Lanka, sculptures thought to depict Avalokitesvara have been reinterpreted as showing Maitreya.

In Korea and Japan, where his cult enjoyed great favour from the sixth century, he is often confused (as in China) with Amitabha and Sakyamuni."

Source:

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/.../maitreya2.htm

So I think there is evidence depending on the tradition of Buddhism that there is a view connecting Maitreyya with Amitabha.


- Art

yes, but not in the way that you imagine that it is.

they are not the same being, represented in three different ways... which is what you are implying when you say that Amitabha and Maitreya are the same. they are distinct beings.

this really gets into some esoteric aspects of Buddhist thinking touching on foundational things which need to be firmly grasped and penetrated to get the full flavor of.. not saying that you do not, by any means, rather, i'm not qualifed to expound the fullness of my schools philosophical principles.

coincidently....

i shall be starting a thread in the Eastern Thought forum rather soon that deals with the different schools of Buddhist philosophy... hopefully, it will be of some interest and i will do an adequate job of representing the various views correctly.

(actually... i am quite worried that i don't represent my Theravedan brothers and sisters very accurately... )

by the by... in my tradition the triad of beings is Avolakiteshavara, Manjurshi and Vajrapani. heh... goes to show you how many blooms open under the Dharma rain

[arthra]

Relax Vajra my friend...

When you've read the reference I posted earlier on the Baha'i Faith and Buddhism let me know what you think....

I'll also give you a Baha'i perspective on Maitreyya and Amitabha.

I'm not here to convert you, but only to explain the Baha'i perspective!

- Art

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Art,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by arthra

Relax Vajra my friend...

When you've read the reference I posted earlier on the Baha'i Faith and Buddhism let me know what you think....

I'll also give you a Baha'i perspective on Maitreyya and Amitabha.

I'm not here to convert you, but only to explain the Baha'i perspective!

- Art

i've read and re-read the link 4 times now... i think i have a grasp of the material, to some degree.

my overall impression is thus.. it would seem that the Baha'i exposition of Buddhism is Hinyanan in nature. this would account for some of the interpetations that are presented.

do not worry, mon ami, i have no fears of being converted

hopefully, i'm not coming on too strongly, as i'm really not like that at all i'm a very happy and joyful person... as a rule.... though, like anyone.. i can lose my patience. if you have perceived that on my behalf, i apologize.

[arthra]

Vajra...

Good! And what a beautiful rendition of devotional art you've chosen!

I hear you've read that reference earlier and if you'd like to ask further questions on it you're most welcome.

To an certain extend I think you'll find that each successive revelation or religion redefines to an extent the earlier one... So the Buddha in His teaching did not accept the authority of the Vedas and reinterpreted the gods in a new context...

Also there are many legends that abound that have been passed down through the ages and attach themselves to our thinking.

One expalnation of Amitabha by a Baha'i, a Jamshid Fozdar is that it is to be interpreted as a title such as "Eternal Splendour" the transcendental counterpart of the physical or human aspect or "Manushya" of the Buddha Maitreya.

However this is not an official explanation.

Amitabha broken down is "Amit-Abha" and coincidentally or not the "Abha" is identical in meaning to "Abha"(Splendour) a form that Baha'is refer to as the Greatest Name "Ya Baha'ul' Abha" Oh Glory of the All Glorious"

Baha'is do believe that Baha'u'llah was the One promised as Maitreya.

More later,

- Art

[Susma Rio Sep]

I am a postgraduate Catholic. I think I can qualify to be a Baha'i member. The way I see it, Baha'i is essentially my idea of a religion, namely:

A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affections and actions intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably to the believer.

I can fit perfectly in the Baha'i lifestyle and worship, and I can teach in their schools without any difficulty, and teach their religious doctrines and observances with all sincerity. No trouble at all.

Will they receive me to be a member? Do they require some kind of pledge and some kind of registration in some kind of roster?

As regards Buddhism, I consider it also as a religion in my above understanding of religion. Of course Buddhist elites like Vaj would take exceptions. But count me in also as a Buddhist, even in the version of Vaj and company. There is nothing in Vaj's Buddhism that I can't accept or I have to deny. Maybe they don't believe in God; but I understand that they don't disbelieve it either, not in the atheists' psyche and manner. So I don't think they would object to my meditating with them, even with my lapsing now and then into my old habit of communing with the Christian God and Jesus Christ, in the Christian school of mysticism.


It might be good for all Buddhist elites to get together and draw up a definitive list of beliefs they adhere to and disbeliefs they insist on, beliefs like existence is suffering, suffering comes from desire... and such disbeliefs as there is no God and any kind of unknown powers called gods or deities or devils or Satanas...

The tendency of observers when they spend time reading about Buddhism and observing their practices and lifestyle as Buddhists, the conclusion dawns upon them that they are no different from religion as understood in the above definition.

And that should be a task for Vaj and company to disabuse observers. My own suspicion is that for the giant masses of Buddhists who use the label of Buddhist on themselves, theirs is a religion no different in definition as regards essentials from that of Christianity or Islam or Judaism or Baha'i.

Susma Rio Sep

[arthra]

Thank you my dear friend Susma for your note:

Susma wrote:

The way I see it, Baha'i is essentially my idea of a religion, namely:

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A human behavior founded upon a belief in an unknown power resulting in affections and actions intended by the believer to influence the power to react favorably to the believer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can fit perfectly in the Baha'i lifestyle and worship, and I can teach in their schools without any difficulty, and teach their religious doctrines and observances with all sincerity. No trouble at all.

Will they receive me to be a member? Do they require some kind of pledge and some kind of registration in some kind of roster?

My reply:

I appreciated very much your words "I can fit perfectly in the Baha'i lifestyle and worship and can teach in their schools without difficulty and teach their religious doctrines and observances with all sincerity. No trouble at all."

I take it then you've been around Baha'is and are accepting Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this age! Allah'u'Abha my dear friend!

You then ask:

"Will they receive as a member?"

Well Baha'is have a very simply declaration of faith that says:

"I declare my belief in Baha'u'llah, the Promised One of God. I recognize the Bab, HIs Forerunner and Abdul-Baha, the Center of HIs Covenant. I request enrollment in the Baha'i Community with the understanding that Baha'u'llah has established sacred principles, laws, and institutions which I must obey."

When you have submitted this declaration to a Baha'i Institution you can be enrolled, but it is important I think to be certain this is what you most deeply and sincerely wish to do as sometimes one can be uninformed or may not be sure in one's heart of hearts.... So it is not a step to be taken lightly as there can be costs involved in becoming a Baha'i and I'm not referring to monetary costs but social and even personal costs depending on your situation. In some parts of the world today, being a Baha'i can place you at risk my dear friend. So be sure this a step you wish to take!

Further, you ask:

"Do they require some kind of pledge and some kind of registration in some kind of roster?"

My reply:

Well if you've been around Baha'is you know that we do have Institutions...and among them on the local level is the Local Spiritual Assembly, so all you have to do is submit the above declaration to them or you could also send it into your National Spiritual Assembly depending on your country of residence or to Regional Baha'i Council or to a Counselor or Auxiliary Board Member. So you have lots of choices... Most submit their applications to a Local Spiritual Assembly.

They will be most pleased to meet with you and answer any questions you might have about the responsibilities of being a Baha'i!

- Art

[Mick]

Vajradhara, Allah'u'Abha

My friends, I am back. Sorry for the three day absence, but sometimes we have to do what we have to do. If I owe you a post, please let me know. It seems Art was able to answer most of your questions concerning the Baha'i perspective much more eloquently than I could have, but if there was something you were waiting for from me, that I have overlooked, please reiterate for me and I will do the best that I can.

do not worry, mon ami, i have no fears of being converted

Actually, that is not our job as Baha'i teachers. This thread started with you asking questions about the Baha'i Faith and I had tried to respond to them. Many times, when I do this, I am accused of trying to convert somebody. Well, I wouldn't know how to do this if I wanted to. A person becomes a Baha'i when he/she recognizes the station of Baha'u'llah and, by doing so, the truths of His words. He becomes a member of the Baha'i Faith when he signs a declaration card.

In the PalTalk website, a Baha'i room is opened nightly, around 8-9pm EST. It is not an official site, but Baha'is from around the world, come to the room and answering questions from the curious and from serious seekers. It has voice as well as typing and because of the diversity of ethnicities involved, the sounds ring with the beauty of accents from around the world. You are most welcome to join in if you would care to. If I am on line, I am called BahaiMick1 and am always found in the Baha'i room found in the religion group.

I actually brought this up because many people come into the room and say they would just like to listen. The problem with that is if there is nobody asking questions, then there really isn't much to listen to except for Baha'is enjoying each others company. There are no lectures, or sermons given. We have directions from Baha'u'llah concerning proseltyzing and because of this we normally do best when responding to questions.

If I may suggest, if at anytime you feel pressure to convert while discussing the Faith with a Baha'i, it would not be from the Baha'i him/herself but the pressure would come from the 'truths' of the words of Baha'u'llah. I have had a minister of a Christian church tell me he wasn't ready to convert, while we were in a protracted discussion and I had to point out to him that I wasn't trying to convert him, but was just answering his questions.

Again, I ask you to reiterate any questions you may have asked that I either hadn't responded to or you were unsatisfied with my answer. BTW, you had asked if I was interested in your traditions and I answer, "Yes."

warmly,

Mick