Baha'i

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

In Catholic morality the very broad principle of sexual morality is no sex of any kind and any degree outside monogamic marriage, and within marriage no sex except in accordance with the natural law of productive sexuality, meaning no contraception except by abstinence or by rhythm method. Susma Rio Sep

Allah'u'Abha, friend

Concerning sex, Shoghi Effendi, the great grandson of Baha'u'llah and the Guardian of the Faith until his passing in 1957, said in response to a question by a believer:

"In connection with your question relative to the Bahá'í solution of sex problems. On the question of sex the Bahá'ís are, in most of their fundamental views, in full agreement with the upholders of traditional morality. Bahá'u'lláh, like all the other Prophets and Messengers of God, preaches abstinence, and condemns, in vehement language, all forms of sexual laxity, unbridled licence and lust. The Bahá'í standard of sex morality is thus very high, but it is by no means unreasonably rigid. While free love is condemned, yet marriage is considered as a holy act which every human being should be encouraged, though not forced, to perform. Sex instinct, like all other human instincts, is not necessarily evil. It is a power which, if properly directed, can bring joy and satisfaction to the individual. If misused or abused it brings, of course, incalculable harm not only to the individual but also to the society in which he lives. While the Bahá'ís condemn asceticism and all extreme forms of self-mortification they at the same time view with disfavour the current theories of sex ethics which cannot but bring ruin to human society. In the Bahá'í Cause marriage has been encouraged, but made somewhat difficult, conditioned as it is upon the consent of the four parents. Divorce, on the other hand, has been made relatively easy, and the sociologists are just beginning to realise the importance."

This was printed in Unfolding Destiny in a letter dated May 29, 1935. It can, as well as other works, be found at

http://www.ibiblio.org/Bahai/Texts/EN/

This site has most of the writings of the central figures of the Baha'i Faith. I found this quote by going to a simple search and typing in "sex".

We normally tell seekers, to simplify it, when asked a question concerning sex, that we are told that we should enjoy sex to its fullest within our marriage. This quote or a similar one is found in Fortress for Well Being, a compilation of writings put together to help us in forming a strong marriage.

warmly

Mick

[Pagan-prophet]

I’m too ridiculously lazy to read this entire lecture of the Baha'i Faith. However, I did read one section that did interest me. (I don’t dislike your religion. As a matter of fact, I rather enjoy its concept.)

“We believe that God gave us logic so we could know Him. Anything that is illogical is of man and anything that is logical is of God.”

I do not find any logic in understanding a greater being with no evidence of his/her/its existence (do you believe in anyway to connect with this god threw prayer/ magick/ meditation?). Then on top of that the religion must believe in either one God or several Gods. Maybe you answered this question before but I missed it. (I know that I am ignorant of this topic because I have not even heard of the Baha’I Faith until I got to this forum. Please enlighten me.)

[arthra]

Thanks Pagan-prophet for your note!

Pagan-prophet wrote:

I’m too ridiculously lazy to read this entire lecture of the Baha'i Faith. However, I did read one section that did interest me. (I don’t dislike your religion. As a matter of fact, I rather enjoy its concept.)

“We believe that God gave us logic so we could know Him. Anything that is illogical is of man and anything that is logical is of God.”

I do not find any logic in understanding a greater being with no evidence of his/her/its existence (do you believe in anyway to connect with this god threw prayer/ magick/ meditation?).

My reply:

What is it Pagan-prophet that you would like me to do? (1) Prove to you that God exists or (2) were you trying to learn more about the Baha'i Faith? Let me know as I can give information about the Baha'is, but I really think you will have to pursue your own investigation about the existence of a Supreme Being....

As to logic and reasoning, Baha'is believe you should independently investigate and evaluate for yourself reality or truth, that it is your responsibility and obligation to do so and not merely accept what someone else tells you because they are a religious figure of some kind or because you happen to be raised in a certain belief system.

You seem to be asking: "...do you believe in anyway to connect with this god threw prayer/ magick/ meditation?"

Baha'is are monotheists much as Moslems, Christians and Jews are... We have Writings that were revealed by Baha'u'llah that are we feel particularly important for the issues facing mankind today. Baha'is ae interested in the establishment of a world federated government to maintain peace. We advocate reducing the extremes of wealth and poverty and in abolishing racial, class and religious prejudices.

Baha'is believe God can be approached through prayer as in other religions.

Pagan-prophet:

Then on top of that the religion must believe in either one God or several Gods. Maybe you answered this question before but I missed it. (I know that I am ignorant of this topic because I have not even heard of the Baha’I Faith until I got to this forum. Please enlighten me.

Reply:

Yes Baha'is believe in One God and we believe that God has sent Messengers and Prophets down through the ages to uplift mankind to a higher state of civilization... and we believe this will continue through the ages....

- Art

[Pagan-prophet]

“What is it Pagan-prophet that you would like me to do? (1) Prove to you that God exists or (2) were you trying to learn more about the Baha'i Faith?”

I guess what I was trying to ask is: How can you use logic to know God?

“we believe that God has sent Messengers and Prophets down through the ages to uplift mankind to a higher state of civilization...”

Why did god not send himself? Is your god all-powerful?
------
Is there a punishment for not fallowing this faith? (example: hell)

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Pagan-prophet

“What is it Pagan-prophet that you would like me to do? (1) Prove to you that God exists or (2) were you trying to learn more about the Baha'i Faith?”

I guess what I was trying to ask is: How can you use logic to know God?

“we believe that God has sent Messengers and Prophets down through the ages to uplift mankind to a higher state of civilization...”

Why did god not send himself? Is your god all-powerful?
------
Is there a punishment for not fallowing this faith? (example: hell)

Pagan-prophet,

Thank you for your questions.

We are told that which separates us from all the other animals is logic and rational thinking. We see the "breath of life" that God gave the first believer (Adam?) as the gift of logic and we are told that it is this gift that allows us to know God. It is the logic of the creation that is the proof of God. Could this order come from happenstance? It is the logic of evolution that is the proof of God. Could this as well come from happenstance. It is the logic that God instilled in us to make us His chosen animals/people that allows us to know and accept Him. Science without religion/spirituality is materialism and religion/spritiuality without logic is mere superstition.

We are told that God is Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent. He is the Unknown/Knowable. We can know His works and expectations, but we cannot conceive his presence. For this reason, He has chosen certain individuals to manifest His qualities and it is these Individuals that we know as Prophets/Manifestations. From the time of their imbuement it was as if God Himself spoke. They were chosen to deliver the new directions/message from God so society could continue to advance. Baha'u'llah told us this was called Progressive Revelation of God. We are told to think of the Manifestations as perfectly polished mirrors that reflect all the qualities of God. It is these qualities that attracted mankind to them and the message they were espousing. It is these qualities that made each and every one of them have to deny their own deity.

I am not sure what you mean by "all-powerful". We are told there is only one God and He is the God of all the religions of God.

The only punishment for not following the writings of Baha'u'llah is that one wouldn't be enlightened by God's most recent message. We believe that we can follow the will of God through many intermediaries as well as none. The important actions that we must do to walk the path is to accept the existance of God, to pray and meditate and to do good acts. With these three mandates our life will become calm and fulfilled.

In your original post you mentioned you were lazy. I doubt that. Searching for the truths of God or spiritual truths is a chore the lazy couldn't acheive what more even begin. I applaud you in your energy and questions.

warmly,

Mick

[Pagan-prophet]

Thank you for your answers.

If I where to use logic to say "It is the logic that God instilled in us to make us His chosen animals/people that allows us to know and accept Him.” We must assume god was also given logic. To put it briefly, using your logic God must have a God.

Logic is reason. Reason states that what you can sense is reality. Because we cannot truly sense God on a physical level then that means God defies human logic. Therefore God’s gift of logic to man made to understand god is useless.

If you where to say that God is an explanation of the universe then you would also have to explain the explanation. It is illogical to explain something that is beyond understanding.

Originally Posted by Mick

We can know His works and expectations, but we cannot conceive his presence

Why not? If god is what you say, “Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent” Then he can change us to conceive his presence. On the other hand, if he chooses he can make himself in a form in which we can conceive his presence. If god is omnipresent (Present everywhere simultaneously) then that means that we are always conceiving his presence. Therefore, there would be no need for prophets because God could do everything himself. If you where to say that we do experience god at all times, we just don’t notice it then that means we can conceive his presence. “I think therefore I am.” Thus, because we simply are, we are conceiving God’s presents. If you where to say that god himself came down in human form posing as prophets “it was as if God Himself spoke” then that would mean that he cannot be omniscient because he knew what the Story of Jesses and the Islamic religion would counter each other therefore making his efforts pointless. This means that the small percentage of the world that does believe in the Baha’I Faith is the only truly correct religion there is and God was unable to teach us all correctly. If god is flawed (because he is unable to do something) then he is no longer Omniscient or Omnipresent or Omnipotent.

Originally Posted by Mick

They were chosen to deliver the new directions/message from God so society could continue to advance.

However, this brings us back to God giving people predestination. If god gave the answers of life freely to one man that means that God is in favor of one person over another. Therefore, God cannot be equally benevolent. In addition, if God knows what is going to happen in the future then that means we have a set fate. This refers back to my topic in the “Can the bible be taken literally?” thread.

God is omniscient.
Therefore,
God knows what are future is going to be.
Therefore,
We have a set future. (No other options other than those set up by god.)
Therefore,
We have no free will.

If there is no free will then what is the point of the ability to be cruel?

“In your original post you mentioned you were lazy. I doubt that. Searching for the truths of God or spiritual truths is a chore the lazy couldn't acheive what more even begin. I applaud you in your energy and questions.”

I applaud you as well. I guess I was just tired the day I wrote that. What I mean is, I don’t have the time to read six pages of other peoples discussions in search of my own answers. Thanks though.

[arthra]

I'm a little reluctant to say this but considering your answers Pagan-prophet, this is why i think it's really up to you to prove God to yourself...no one can "prove God" for you.

It just doesn't work that way... You have to do the work or not to prove it for yourself and that's what Baha'is call "indendent investigation of truth." It requires some work i think for most of us to do this.

I'll give you an example.... Because my wife loves me and trusts me I can say i went to a given movie and she'll accept that.

However someone else may want to see my movie ticket

and a third will ask me to describe the movie for them to discuss with me further to satisfy themselves that i really did see the film.... Perhaps a professor in a film history class.

What this means is that everyone has different requirements for proofs so what is a proof for you may well not be of any concern whatsoever to another person and that's why no one proof of God can ever satisfy every one.

But one of the things i've learned is that we can't test God in the way you suggest as we're rather limited in our sense perceptions and abilities to comprehend.... Many animals for instance have a much better sense of smell or hearing than we do...so by their standards we are truly limited means.

A true scientist will acknowledge that the more they discover the less they really know. What do they mean by that? Well that actually as knowledge of a given field progresses, it also provides us with hints that there is a much wider field we know nothing about.... So, in approaching the subject of the Absolute, God or a Supreme Being is much the same thing... We simply "do not know" and that's why God is described in the Baha'i Writings as an "Unknowable Essence". We can however accept as "evidence" what each of us has as a standard of proof...

Your statement made in your last post:

"However, this brings us back to God giving people predestination. If god gave the answers of life freely to one man that means that God is in favor of one person over another. Therefore, God cannot be equally benevolent. In addition, if God knows what is going to happen in the future then that means we have a set fate. This refers back to my topic in the “Can the bible be taken literally?” thread."

This statement above is predicated on your own "logic"... and base of knowledge. I've mentioned this before to you, but Baha'is are not proponents of "Predestination" as I suggested earlier on a another topic, you really should probably find a Calvinist to try your wares with them.

Let's look at your statement though:

"If god gave the answers of life freely to one man that means that God is in favor of one person over another. Therefore, God cannot be equally benevolent."

God is benevolent in our view because He doesn't leave man alone but provides a Revelation for the guidance of the human race and this is not solely to "one person" as you suggest, but through the Founders of the major religions of the earth, i.e., through Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and will continue well into the future ages as long as humanity is around....

So it is God providing through Revelation over the ages, countless Manifestations of His Attributes to all the peoples of the earth.

Another point that you raised:

"If you where to say that god himself came down in human form posing as prophets “it was as if God Himself spoke” then that would mean that he cannot be omniscient because he knew what the Story of Jesses and the Islamic religion would counter each other therefore making his efforts pointless."

Actually Baha'is do not believe that "god himself came down in human form posing as prophets". Baha'is deny that this is possible, rather to use an illustration could the Sun itself descend to the earth? No, as we know the earth would vaporize. So God Himself does not descend and "pose" as a prophet, but we Baha'is say that God can be reflected in the pure Mirror of a Manifestation of God... Baha'is also accept that there is Progressive Revelation and that man can learn more of God as each revelation reveals more and more in time... just as a elementary math student will accept "two plus two..." equals... and a more advanced student will be introduced to calculus and algebra so more and more responsibility and knowledge is given to man in each revelation.

It is not we who test God but God who tests us, that is, we discover where we stand in the general scheme of things by how we measure up to the teachings and principles brought to us through Revealed religion."

The Baha'i Faith is only the most recent Revelation from God and contains criteria for us today... I'll list just two of these criteria...

Baha'u'llah called upon the rulers of His day to renounce armaments and the heavy taxation resulting from arms races... The rulers ignored Him and the world slid toward the First World War and the Second World War followed soon after that.

Baha'u'llah said that a world federal system should be established well over a hundred years ago....

In this department there has been some progress as we had a fledgling League of Nations and now a United Nations, but much more is needed to progress toward a truly federated world government...

So the above will give you some idea where humanity has been tested and has much further to go...

- Art

[Vajradhara]

Namaste,

all of them excpet for the Buddha, from a Buddhist perspective that is

ah.. that old waffle once again

my Baha'i friends... i wish i could help you to understand why your attribution of Messenger of God to this particular Buddha is incorrect, but alas, i cannot

in the end, if it causes you to engage in a valid moral and ethical path, then i cannot really protest too vigiorously.

i suppose turn about is fair play... as we'd consider Jesus, Mohammad, Zoroaster, et all to be Bodhisattvas... perhaps even 8th or 9th level Bodhisattvas, depending on whom we are discussing.

[arthra]

Vajradhara wrote:

all of them excpet for the Buddha, from a Buddhist perspective that is

ah.. that old waffle once again

my Baha'i friends... i wish i could help you to understand why your attribution of Messenger of God to this particular Buddha is incorrect, but alas, i cannot

in the end, if it causes you to engage in a valid moral and ethical path, then i cannot really protest too vigiorously.

i suppose turn about is fair play... as we'd consider Jesus, Mohammad, Zoroaster, et all to be Bodhisattvas... perhaps even 8th or 9th level Bodhisattvas, depending on whom we are discussing.

My reply:

My dear friend:

"Buddhisattvahood" is not in my mind much in conflict with the concept of Manifestations of God... I think the issue here may be the term "God" and what that name connotes for you. God as an "Unknowable Essence" is not much apart from the Absolute or the truth:

"Now let us bear in mind that not this or that law which is evealed to us in the Dharma is the Buddha, but the entire truth which is eternal. omnipresent, immutable and most excellent...

One could also i think see similarities between "Buddhas" and Manifestations of God in the following:

"All the Buddhas are wonderful and glorius.
There is not their equal upon earth.
They reveal to us the path of life.
And we hail their appearance with pious reverence...."

"And the Blessed One replied:

"I am not the first Buddha who came upon earth, nor will I be the last. In due time anotehr Buddha will arise in the world.... He will preach his religion, glorius in its origin, glorius at the climax and glorius at the goal in the spirit and the letter..."

From the "Handbook of Chinese Buddhism" by Ernest J. Eitel and quoted by Paul Carus in "The Gospel of Buddha" the concluding chapter.

- Art

[Pagan-prophet]

Thank you for your reply art,

“I'm a little reluctant to say this but considering your answers Pagan-prophet, this is why i think it's really up to you to prove God to yourself...no one can "prove God" for you.”

But that is my point. If you cannot prove me that he exists then your not using logic to describe your god. For me, I don’t sense my Gods with my physical to understand the Gods. I use my psychic abilities to sense them. Because I use my psychic abilities I do not need logic because I feel him/her already (therefore using logic). But this brings me to a next question, if you are unable to provide a logical explanation for how your god exists to me then how did you provide logic for yourself?
--------------------
“What this means is that everyone has different requirements for proofs so what is a proof for you may well not be of any concern whatsoever to another person and that's why no one proof of God can ever satisfy every one.”

But your “Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent” god can simply make that one piece of proof that will satisfy everyone to come into everyone. If what your saying is true and god wants us to know about him then all of his prophets where a strange idea considering that they seemed to confuse us very well as to what deity is correct.

An Omnipotent god who wants us to know of him would program The Baha’I understanding of himself into us all (or send more accurate prophets). An Omniscient God would know that Jesus and Allah would counter each other and make people disagree and misinterpret.
---------------------
“But one of the things i've learned is that we can't test God in the way you suggest as we're rather limited in our sense perceptions and abilities to comprehend....”

What makes you so sure that there are more perceptions necessary to understand god? Am I wrong in saying a main reason of the prophets is to help us understand God. If God where Omnipotent then he would have simply given us the ability(s) to comprehend him ((If he wanted us to comprehend him)) if we as you say cannot comprehend. If God where Omniscient then he would know that we(most) would misunderstand him and therefore he would not bother sending his Prophets. This is how I understand the history of the Baha’I faith thus far:

God makes humans
God is Omnipotent but does not make us comprehend him
Humans cannot comprehend god
God wants us to comprehend him (Though God is Omnipotent and can program the knowledge unto us he chooses to send prophets instead)
God Sends prophets to correct confusion (Knowing it will cause more confusion and have some religions counter others.)
Humans get even more confused because many religions counter each other.
-----------------
I found a contradiction in your writings:

Art: “We simply "do not know" and that's why God is described in the Baha'i Writings as an "Unknowable Essence".”

Mick: “It is the logic that God instilled in us to make us His chosen animals/people that allows us to know and accept Him.”

How can one be given logic to know the Unknowable Essence? That in itself is illogical.
----------------
“I've mentioned this before to you, but Baha'is are not proponents of "Predestination" as I suggested earlier on a another topic, you really should probably find a Calvinist to try your wares with them.”

You must believe in Predestination because you believe in an Omniscient god and god knows what the future is going to be therefore he predetermines all events before he makes them. If God cannot predetermine the future (like what you and I agree on) then he cannot be Omniscient or Omnipotent. No matter how you boil down to it the facts are, because god can do anything he must be able to know the future and then make the world the way he knows it will turn out to be. Thus everything is predetermined.

Even If God where to Ignore his visions of the future then he is making a risky chance at making pain in the world.
---------------
“God is benevolent in our view because He doesn't leave man alone but provides a Revelation for the guidance of the human race and this is not solely to "one person" as you suggest, but through the Founders of the major religions of the earth, i.e., through Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and will continue well into the future ages as long as humanity is around....”

That is similar to saying, “The Dog’s master loves him because he feeds him.” Just because this Master feeds the dog it does not provide much evidence for love.
------------------
“Actually Baha'is do not believe that "god himself came down in human form posing as prophets". Baha'is deny that this is possible, rather to use an illustration could the Sun itself descend to the earth? No, as we know the earth would vaporize.”

So… God can’t come to earth because it is impossible for him to do? Yet God is Omnipotent. A God that can do anything would be able to come down to earth as well as he can make the earth touch the sun unharmed.

“It is not we who test God but God who tests us”

Test: “A procedure for critical evaluation; a means of determining the presence, quality, or truth of something.” Why would God need to find the quality of truth of something if he already knows all the answers of the universe? (because he is Omniscient)
-------------------
Thanks,
Pagan-prophet

[arthra]

Thanks for your reply Pagan-prophet!

I think it is really up to you to sort out your beliefs and investigate what for you makes sense...

No one can really do this for you....

Since this topic was really about "Baha'i - in the Comparative Studies forum of comparative-religion", I will still extend my offer to you to respond to any questions you may have about the Baha'i Faith!

God bless you!

- Art

[Pagan-prophet]

Originally Posted by arthra

God bless you!
- Art

Why thank you!

With love peace and happiness,
-The masta’ of disasta’

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Pagan-prophet

Why thank you!

With love peace and happiness,
-The masta’ of disasta’

Thanks Pagan-prophet:

It's really not in our culture to argue a great deal about the nature of God as we feel He is not knowable and any "conclusions" we could make are not tenable and liable to error but any conclusions you have arrived at through

as you wrote:

"psychic abilities I do not need logic because I feel him/her already (therefore using logic)"

are acceptable.

Abdul-Baha outlined in "Some Answered Questions" the methods of acquiring knowledge and these i think are applicable to science, philosophy and religious truths. He outlines four methods 1) through the senses, 2) through reason; 3) by applying to Holy Scriptures or traditions; 4) Comprehension through the Holy Spirit: "This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained." -pp. 341-343 "Some Answered Questions".

People can spend a lot of time and get involved in various arguments about God "but if the inner perception be open, a hundred thousand clear proofs become visible. Thus when man feels the indwelling spirit he is in no need of arguments for its existence." -p. 7 Ibid.

We also believe it is by God's mercy that we can know as much as we do about the nature of God through His Prophets and Messengers.

- Art

[Susma Rio Sep]

I want to make a confession:

Thanks to everyone here who have tried to explain their respective religion.

I am for my own part a postgraduate Catholic, I believe in God and find Jesus Christ to be a good teacher. O.K., Son of God, if you should insist those who are Christians here. Nothing difficult in believing, I always say, which I am sure someone will point out that then it means nothing to me to believe in religious truths...

Really not that it means nothing, but that I am not going to go about exhibiting my label of religious affiliation and ID; and certainly I am not going to hurt or get hurt for religious beliefs, much less kill or get killed; and of course I am not going to sacrifice my liberty and my intelligence for the sake of being true to religious tenets.

What am I confessing here? That I still keep on reading and thinking about religion, fearing that I might miss something that is really useful or even critically crucial to my future weal, specially in regard to my post death existence if any.

Now, those who are articulately against religion, they are doing a very good service to religious people, making them think of ways and means to make their religious beliefs more convincing to themselves, that is. And maybe I might find from the pleadings of the against religion factions and of the pro religion factions something that I might really discover to be a genuine boon.

Susma Rio Sep

[arthra]

Good post Susma!

I particularly liked your point:

"Really not that it means nothing, but that I am not going to go about exhibiting my label of religious affiliation and ID; and certainly I am not going to hurt or get hurt for religious beliefs, much less kill or get killed; and of course I am not going to sacrifice my liberty and my intelligence for the sake of being true to religious tenets.

"That I still keep on reading and thinking about religion, fearing that I might miss something that is really useful or even critically crucial to my future weal, specially in regard to my post death existence if any."

Since this is a comparative religion site I felt it would be best to identify myself as a Baha'i... Also there is no general informative introduction to my Faith as yet on this forum.... Baha'is generally welcome interaction with all kinds of people and I agree with you we should all be open and willing to consider the contributions others make.

I think most people here are curious and willing to consider things and that most we can be considerate to each others views and agree where we can agree!

- Art